McGwire in the Hall of Fame?

Originally posted by jofaz
It is nice of you to be rude, especially when you have a distinct minority opinion. But, Hank Aaron is VERY different from Palmiero and Bonds.
(1) Aaron always hit a lot of homers and broke the 40 homer mark regularly so even if his highest total was when he was 37. He was not a guy who was a slap hitter like Palmiero and Bonds who in their thirties start ...[text shortened]... sues and tehrefore do not deserve the benefit of any doubt. How much more evidence do you need?

Again, you didn't bother to look at Palmeiro's numbers. In his very first year, he hit 14 HR's in 221 AB; that's pretty heavy "slap hitting". He then had two low power years, but then hit in the twenties for a few years in a row while still in his mid-twenties and then hit 37 when he was 28. It's not unusual in baseball for a young player to not hit a lot of home runs but then develop power; Don Mattingly hit less then 10 home runs in some of his first few years. Please actually bother to do some rudimentary research before running off at the mouth.

Originally posted by Phlabibit
You think an Engine can win as an engine against a user who is 'good' at chess AND an engine user? Look at the idiots who get caught right away vs. users who finally get caught after long searches.

They use the engine like a drug to be much better... just like an MLB player who's good and switches to using steroids. Better power, quicker healing, lon ...[text shortened]... reason to risk your health over steroids if they didn't help you a lot.

Smarten up.

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Actually, I don't care if they use steroids or not, but this nonsense that it's some miracle drug that makes ordinary players start walloping a 100 HR's a year is ridiculous.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
How does one 'accidently' take steroids? I find his denial hard to believe.

Players take steroids to improve their performance. (I certainly haven't heard a good alternate explanation for why they'd take them.) The fact that it does not work for some of them is irrelevant. The intent is all that matters.

I don't suppose you've ever heard of a "false positive"?

The Congressional subcommittee report (as ridiculous as it is that such an issue warranted a CSR) found no reason to indict Palmeiro for perjury when he denied using steroids. In addition, he had been tested several times in 2004 and 2003 and had come up "clean".

So intending to have better performance is now an unspeakable crime in sport? How about Tommy John or laser eye surgeries?

EDIT: The CSR report is at: http://reform.house.gov/UploadedFiles/111005%20Palmeiro%20Report.pdf

On page 15, an arbitration panel finds insufficient evidence to conclude that Mr. Palmeiro testified untruthfully before them or "any other body" (including Congress). On page 45, are the findings of fact; they also exonerate Palmeiro. The whole thing is worth a read for you "guilty until proven innocent" folks.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Again, you didn't bother to look at Palmeiro's numbers. In his very first year, he hit 14 HR's in 221 AB; that's pretty heavy "slap hitting". He then had two low power years, but then hit in the twenties for a few years in a row while still in his mid-twenties and then hit 37 when he was 28. It's not unusual in baseball for a young player to not hit a lo ...[text shortened]... . Please actually bother to do some rudimentary research before running off at the mouth.

Palmiero increased his homerun total dramtically AND tested positive for steriods. He's a proven cheater. It is an easy open and shut case.
Perhaps someone else may be on the Hall of Fame ballot who is uninjured people and got surgery to improve themselves or that might be some but not overwhelming evidence or steriod use. But that is not a justification to get easy cases wrong.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I don't suppose you've ever heard of a "false positive"?

The Congressional subcommittee report (as ridiculous as it is that such an issue warranted a CSR) found no reason to indict Palmeiro for perjury when he denied using steroids. In addition, he had been tested several times in 2004 and 2003 and had come up "clean".

So intendi ...[text shortened]... almeiro. The whole thing is worth a read for you "guilty until proven innocent" folks.

I am not advocating the conviction of guys like McGwire and Palmeiro on federal drug/perjury charges. I am advocating that they be kept out of the Hall of Fame. Strict evidentiary standards aren't required for a Hall of Fame vote.

The report does not indicate a false positive, but rather a lack of evidence, as stated on p.45 ["In the absence of specific evidence that Mr. Palmeiro took steroids prior to March 17, 2005, the Committee will not be referring the matter to the Department of Justice for a possible perjury prosecution."].

Originally posted by no1marauder
Actually, I don't care if they use steroids or not, but this nonsense that it's some miracle drug that makes ordinary players start walloping a 100 HR's a year is ridiculous.

They don't make average players great... but they can make great players super.

It's cheating, and it can destroy your body. This stuff needs to stop or all the kids in school are going to keep using them... like 3 of my friends back in the mid 80's did.

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