Also to be completely transparent I have no problem with the same two clans fighting it out at the top. Good for Fred and Michael.
Some may not agree with all their methods, but the work product is there. They put in the time and the table reflects their expertise. Neither of them made the site rules.
What I want to see is not them taken down but more clans rising up. If we had 20 more clans and every current clan that has room adds 5 players - it would be a much better environment for all clan members.
Finally (and I will let this go and go back to being quiet) - I don't think the average clan player could care less about how Metallica created their dynasty. Everyone here in the forum can get excited and take sides - but the average 1400 player in a clan on Page 2 just wants good games.
And that is what we need - about 200 more 1300-1400 rated players in new Page 2 clans. We want to grow the feature. Some think growing the feature requires a different winner now and again. I do not agree. Would that be great? Sure. But is that what is required to fix the clan system? I don't think so.
Your mileage may vary
JC
@Napi Well, one thing we could do is talk up the clan system. When I have an opening in my clan, I let the folks in my club know about it. I find people but usually I have to explain to them what the clan concept is and how it works. I find people just do not know about or enough about both clans and clubs. It's interesting. I try to keep my clan at a full 20 but don't have a lot of higher end players.
@napi saidAs a member of Metallica for 13 years before moving to Breaking bad 2 years plus I can tell you how we were in it every year. A lot of hard work by the Clan Leader and the Clan members following the strategy the Clan Leader had.
Also to be completely transparent I have no problem with the same two clans fighting it out at the top. Good for Fred and Michael.
Some may not agree with all their methods, but the work product is there. They put in the time and the table reflects their expertise. Neither of them made the site rules.
What I want to see is not them taken down but more clans rising up. If ...[text shortened]... t is that what is required to fix the clan system? I don't think so.
Your mileage may vary
JC
Last year we had almost everyone on the same page in Breaking bad and finished 1rst. This year we ran into problems with people not being on the same page in my humble opinion. It appears Metallica will win again this year because they are disciplined and follow what the Clan Leader says. Also many of us were retired or semi retired so lots of time for chess. Keep in mind few changes happen in Metallica so Majority of members have been there for many years and excellent players.
There is no doubt the ones who do the majority of the work are the Clan Leaders, but if we as Clan members are not going to listen to what they say, we will not win and always be a 2nd place Clan. Personally I'd like to see a few more Clans fighting it out for top spot every year. It takes a lot of hard work and discipline by everyone.
I'd say arguably shortcircuit and VESPIN are two of the hardest working clan leaders.
I wish I had the answers on how to make things more competitive.
-VR
@Very-Rusty
I want to say thank you Rusty. You put it perfectly. The leader of Metallica wins for a few reasons. One, best leader in here. Can't be disputed He is able to do what Rusty said. one, he has his players on the same page, two, they listen to his advice and follow his direction on resigning games, and letting matches go so they don't to into the next season. That is it in a nutshell.
The other leaders won't play you because they have silly formulas, or stats, none of which work, and never did like the TER that faded out.
The leaders also will fight with you over a two player match or a 6 player match.
If I dare ask for a 6 to 10 player match they lose their mind and these leaders are on the last page and second to last page. They are in the negative points and still they argue. What is the point of running a clan if you won't play your players?
Want to know how to win or be on page one, stop complaining, and play your players win or lose. Metallica plays fair just as I do. Metallica just listened to their leader as they should and the result is a win. I think they wanted to win more as also.
I love my clan, and my players. But we had a few go off the reservation and don't listen to my instruction. The new year there will be some faces gone, and new ones coming in.
I'll be honest, If I send a message to some players they don't respond or they don't give an answer. If they don't do the few simple things which Metallica has given us the blue print for, how can my team win? They can't.
I ask people to resign a game because that match is done. They don't do it. They don't respond. No more dealing with that. I will make changes and we will move forward.
I think leaders need to play their players FAR MORE than they do, stop with the formulas and the 90 day thing which means nothing, and use the history between the two players, and just play your guys and gals. If you are in the negative what do you have to lose and why argue over two players or 4? It's just stilly and maybe they should not be leaders. We need leaders that play a lot, and don't aregue over a few players. Make some big matches which are fun.
The best leader is running Metallica, and he has his team on the same page and they listen to him or they find a new team.
Congratulations to Metallica for playing steady and following their leader. The best leader in the system.
Rusty hit all the correct points and nailed it on the head. Well said Rusty.
Michael
The net points list ,which is what everyone uses as a guide to a clans success,can never be an accurate measure because each clan do not play an equal number of games with and equal number of players in a challenge and an equal number of challenges.
Suppose I form a clan with 4 players,we play 30 challenges in the year and win 27 of them we still would not accrue the same number of net points as Metallica for example.
Never mind the net points list.What is needed to measure a clans success over the year is a percentage wins list with clans having to have played a minimum number of games to appear on it.
@venda I think you would just be changing problems going with a perrcentage of wins. You will still have the issue of how many games (even with a minimum) and also the problem of each match having a different number of participants. Is a win over another clan with 20 participants better than one with only 4 participants on each side. The net takes that into account but I'm not sure a percentage does. Unless I'm reading your percentage as percentage of won matches as compared to percentage of overall wins.
@lstcyr saidIt has to be a percentage of won matches regardless of games won.If it were games won the bigger clans who could mount bigger challenges would have an unfair advantage.
@venda I think you would just be changing problems going with a perrcentage of wins. You will still have the issue of how many games (even with a minimum) and also the problem of each match having a different number of participants. Is a win over another clan with 20 participants better than one with only 4 participants on each side. The net takes that into account but I'm not ...[text shortened]... I'm reading your percentage as percentage of won matches as compared to percentage of overall wins.
@venda Then, I don't think it would work. What would start happening is that the clans would break up their challenges into smaller groupings. Why would you do a 20 person match when you could do three 7 person matches and possibly win two out of three and get a higher percentage? Good thought though.
@lstcyr saidAye.
@venda Then, I don't think it would work. What would start happening is that the clans would break up their challenges into smaller groupings. Why would you do a 20 person match when you could do three 7 person matches and possibly win two out of three and get a higher percentage? Good thought though.
Whatever system is adopted there will always be those who find loopholes to exploit and whatever scoring system is adopted the enthusiastic clans will prevail while others become inactive after a while.
I think the real problem with the clan system,and it has been tweaked a lot over the years,is a variety of things.Firstly a player will start a clan with the best of intentions.After a while ,he will find how difficult and time consuming it is to find and mount challenges, plus fielding biased challenges and simply lose interest, especially if he can't find someone else to take the reins.Secondly,I know some players will not be interested in the clan performance but just use the system as a conduit for having games found for them without having to put the time and effort in themselves.
@divegeester removed their quoted postNot yet Gooster, you still have a pretty good chance of winning. 😛
Even though you didn't help very much in it.
You got a few points where your Clan Leader tossed you a bone where the Challenge was won anyways, so didn't matter if you won or lost still 2 more points. 🙂
-VR
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@Napi
The Clan system seems like a worthy thing to try and improve.
There seem to be a variety of potential root causes of declining interest. We should isolate each of them before considering what the potential solutions might be (and consider how each solution might influence the various root causes).
Potential causes of Clan Interest Decline
1. How easy/hard it is to be the clan leader
1.a. Choosing fair matches , quickly, easily
1.b. Understanding whether the choices made had the intended results - ie is your mental model good? Comparing games assignments and the player ratings at that time vs the resultant wins or losses
1.c. Judging whether other Clans or individuals are ‘sandbagging’ … tbh I’d be surprised if anyone actually deviously trashes multiple games ‘just so they can dupe the Clan Community’. Some folk just can’t be arsed to keep playing when the balance tips against them. The more games they have going on, the more likely they’ll bug out when the going gets tough. It’s judging how good or bad they really are that the Clan Leader needs help with.
1.d…. Auto Lock Out of attempted game allocation when a team member’s clan games exceeds their declared/preferred limit (means I don’t have to consult the clan tables and remember who still has headroom for more games).
….. other issues ….?
2. How interested clan members are in their clan actually succeeding
2.a. for many it seems like merely an effort free way of getting paired up for games.
2.b. EASILY SEEING how well they are contributing to the clan success (or failure) might be something we could play with
2.c. … the Won/Drawn/Lost chart is hard to interpret - the bottom row is clear… you can see the Lost game bars go up and down, but then the Drawn and Won bars are a jumble (because they sit on top of the Lost bars - which jig up and down).
2.d. … seeing how Clans are moving in the table could be an angle. Weekly movements or position switches every time a new result comes in maybe? With some historical trace showing progress over time ? Harvard Business Review says that the biggest driver of job satisfaction is having a ‘sense of making progress’ - I don’t see why that wouldn’t work here too.
2.e. …. Having the WHITE | BLACK winning analysis bar publicly showing … to trigger more strenuous effort to fight back through guilt of not wanting to let the team down !!?!
2.f. …. Show more clearly how individual members have contributed (or not) to Clan wins … tricky, you don’t want to DE-motivate them
3. RECRUITMENT …. Can we make it easier to recruit ew members?
4…. Other categories?
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@Very-Rusty
As a (newish) Clan Leader I’m very interested to learn what the clan leaders of the top clans “tell their clan members to do”. I’m trying to guide and motivate may team… but apart from giving them matches that they have a chance of winning, and have them share chess best practice wisdom, what else can I do or influence?
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… and another possible system enhancement to help clan leaders was something good that VESPIN told me - to check the game history of the two players you are assessing for a clan match. Could we just add the ability to select TWO players to see how they did against each other (rather than what we can do at the moment which is to just check ME against one other)?
@stevehewitt saidJeeze Stevehewitt,
@Very-Rusty
As a (newish) Clan Leader I’m very interested to learn what the clan leaders of the top clans “tell their clan members to do”. I’m trying to guide and motivate may team… but apart from giving them matches that they have a chance of winning, and have them share chess best practice wisdom, what else can I do or influence?
That is tough question. You must have everyone on the same page and checking their games against each other is time consuming as you know it would be, but is one way to find out how they have done when they've played each other. Other Clan Leaders top ones have been here for years and know many players true ratings which really help when making up challenges. Metallica's Leader and Breaking Bad my Clan Leader are two of the best at it. I am a co-captain on another site and make up challenges. It is very time consuming and unrewarding at times, but someone has to do it. I'd love to see more competition then 2 Clans fighting it out for first every year. I'd like to see 6 Clans or more going after it, but it just isn't going to happen. Not everyone has the time to put into it, personally I am retired so have lots of time on my hands. I am not as good at putting challenges together as the Clan Leaders of Metallica and Breaking Bad are, but they have been doing it for many years as I said and know many of the players strengths on all Clans.
Good Luck to you, and hope I've helped a little. Experience is big it will come with time if you are willing to put in the time and grind that goes with it.
-VR