@kevcvs57 saidHello? Kev, Medicare for all will lNDEED abolish private insurance. This is a NEW YORK TIMES article, for gosh sakes, a lib newspaper. So, your post is wrong at the outset, thus not worth finishing. Do another subject, maybe????? crwd https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/23/health/private-health-insurance-medicare-for-all-bernie-sanders.html
Either stop being an idiot or stop lying, no one is going to ban private health insurance in the US anymore than they have in the UK and we’ve had an NHS system since the 1940s.
I paid BUPA £350 a couple of years ago to get some tests at a time convenient for me but I had the subsequent treatment with the NHS and the results went to me and my NHS GP by email.
So do stop th ...[text shortened]... Joe you might still get to see people of different ‘cultures’ dying for lack of expedient treatment.
05 Jan 21
@joe-shmo saidIt seems you're talking about medical fraud, not standard claims.
"Well, first of all that won't happen, because in civilized countries leg amputations don't cost 100k"
I'm not sure if that figure of 100k is entirely accurate. That was a figure of total care ( the amputation and follow up care for three years from a medical journal 10 years ago ). But lets say it is.
How much do they cost in your civilized country?
In that case, it turns out government is a lot more engaged in identifying fraud vs. private insurers. Private insurers do not care.
He said my calls to the prosecutors exposed alarming differences in the way fraud is enforced in the private and government health plans. The Medicaid fraud units are “staffed and actively engaged,” said Michael Elliott, who ran about 100 fraud investigations when he worked for the Department of Justice in Texas from 2008 to 2015.
Private insurers, he said, simply don’t make fraud enforcement a big enough part of their mission. “At the end of the day, it shows their priorities are elsewhere,” he said.
https://www.propublica.org/article/we-asked-prosecutors-if-health-insurance-companies-care-about-fraud-they-laughed-at-us
I'll believe the conservatives that they actually care about the bottom line when the stop expanding the corporate welfare safety net.
@kevcvs57 saidCarry on with your venomous nitpicking of common sense. I am saying in my entire post that people should be responsible for themselves. (Remember, I am the one that says women want to get pregnant, the process is taught in high school) If people are not responsible for themselves, you are saying that WE need to be responsible for them. Amaxing. How about you start a new thread and explain the logic of that?
Either stop being an idiot or stop lying, no one is going to ban private health insurance in the US anymore than they have in the UK and we’ve had an NHS system since the 1940s.
I paid BUPA £350 a couple of years ago to get some tests at a time convenient for me but I had the subsequent treatment with the NHS and the results went to me and my NHS GP by email.
So do stop th ...[text shortened]... Joe you might still get to see people of different ‘cultures’ dying for lack of expedient treatment.
Yes, I own stock. If I lose it all tomorrow are you going to replace it for me?
You drag out emotion, saying that the immigrant who jumped over the border yesterday is “ dying from lack of expedient treatment“. , And should therefore be in line ahead of me, since I am not as close to death as he is.... something like that? Libs just say anything, even throw in the word heart on occasion. If I have a hamburger on my grill, and a guy hungrier than I am comes by, does he have a legal right to eat that hamburger, ahead of me??!?!? After all, he is hungrier than I am?
This is classic logic, and the reason conservatives are always right. Logic versus emotion. Works every time. Whew.
Quality of doctors??? When EVERYBODY shows up for everything?!? Maybe another thread on that would be fun to banter about.
Yeah I pay for my doctor. It has been going on for about 250 years. I try to make a little more money, so that I can buy better insurance. That is called a choice in America. Liberals do not get that, either
Then, in liberal ease, you mentione all of the universal government programs like roads fireman police and military. So You think that medicine should be included in that category. Then, how about a house and a car. Cell phone? College? College same as Fire protection?!?!?!?
05 Jan 21
@averagejoe1 saidMuch like socialism, the ideal of conservatism is more attractive than reality.
Carry on with your venomous nitpicking of common sense. I am saying in my entire post that people should be responsible for themselves. (Remember, I am the one that says women want to get pregnant, the process is taught in high school) If people are not responsible for themselves, you are saying that WE need to be responsible for them. Amaxing. How about you start a new ...[text shortened]... y. Then, how about a house and a car. Cell phone? College? College same as Fire protection?!?!?!?
The US has had majority-conservative rule for four years. You would think, if your logic vs. emotion idea held up, then personal freedom and accountability should apply to everyone. Why then, is it ok to say "personal freedom" when someone chooses to take a job that doesn't offer health care, but it is not "personal freedom" when an oil company chooses to overproduce and undercut pricing on their own product and giant farm conglomerates choose to monoculture soybeans in a way that leaves them unable to adjust to shifting markets? Yet in each case, the individual is left to the ruthless forces of capitalism while the company gets multi-billion dollar bailouts to keep paying bonuses to their CEOs.
The mind of a modern conservative is that only the job producers deserve socialism. I don't necessarily disagree with your assertion that health care is not a human right, I'd just like a little consistency on the personal freedom front from conservatives.
05 Jan 21
@wildgrass saidA person asks a Corp to hire him. He is elated a Corp might pay him money to work. The Corp was built in a free society by risk-takers. Every person, board member, and worker in this scenario are free to choose their way in life. The Corp, like a person, has a way of life. The Person chooses which Corp to work for depending on benefits. Take or leave. Finds a job that suits him. The Personal Freedom you mention.
Much like socialism, the ideal of conservatism is more attractive than reality.
The US has had majority-conservative rule for four years. You would think, if your logic vs. emotion idea held up, then personal freedom and accountability should apply to everyone. Why then, is it ok to say "personal freedom" when someone chooses to take a job that doesn't offer health care, ...[text shortened]... a human right, I'd just like a little consistency on the personal freedom front from conservatives.
The Corp has personal freedom to make irs own benefits, hire who they want to. Their job is to hire the best people that can make money for the stockholders. If their benefits are crap, no one will work there, they bankrupt.
You mention above that a person takes a job that does not offer health care. Isn’t this a choice he made with his personal freedom of choice? This is where you lose me. I can’t respond to this, why would he take that job? Don’t get your premise.
Then you discuss an ongoing biz practice about production. This has been a problem for many many years,… Imagine the government paying people to not produce something. A discussion on this opens up a huge can of worms, but it is simple common practice. What can I say? Yes, there are shifting markets, this is usual business. I think that history will show you that bail out, or maybe more clearly subsidies, have been a natural part of a capitalistic society for a long time. They would probably love to have you come up with a better idea. But be careful if you have the government dictating the way a business should be run. You see, that becomes Socialism. .
Then you mentioned that only job producers deserve Socialism. This must’ve been a mistake, no corporation or person or society deserves Socialism. Certainly a mistake, a miss type? In closing, if someone does not like what a corporation does, and I mean within the law, then just do not trade with the corporation. And don’t apply for a job there, I don’t know what else could happen in that regard. If they are Monsanto, I would say shut them down and the stockholders can eat it.
06 Jan 21
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I gotta say this. I wrote that in about 2 minutes,. It just flows, with a person that is a full capitalist conservative. I say this so that you might get where we conservatives are coming from. And it's like, when I was writing that, this is SO common sense, so rational. Then I think, what else could it be (except for socialism, of course.). So I am curious, from all of you, what else could it be? I am speaking independence, self reliance, self supporting, entrepreneurship......
Yes about 40M people in this country need help, maybe can hardly cross the street. We should pay every nickel to support them. We can do that. Then...(here it comes..........)everyone else take care of themselves ?!?!?!?!?? Is that so unrealistic?
@averagejoe1 saidI notice you're writing about capitalism now and not conservatism. Conservative ideas aren't anywhere near what you're describing (look at the US federal spending for example). Yet again your happy little capitalistic scenario is the fake town they built in High Plains Drifter. It's make believe.
A person asks a Corp to hire him. He is elated a Corp might pay him money to work. The Corp was built in a free society by risk-takers. Every person, board member, and worker in this scenario are free to choose their way in life. The Corp, like a person, has a way of life. The Person chooses which Corp to work for depending on benefits. Take or leave. Finds a job that sui ...[text shortened]... en in that regard. If they are Monsanto, I would say shut them down and the stockholders can eat it.
A person asks a Corp to hire him. The corp says maybe we have to see if the Senate approves the multi-billion dollar spending package for our industry (farming, energy, drugs, schools etc.). If they do give us free money (that's where the socialism comes in), we'll hire you. If they don't approve it, we'll declare bankruptcy, make sure we and all our investors keep our initial investment plus a hefty profit, and then check to see what industry Congress will subsidize next year for our next business. In the meantime we're going to complain that if they don't give us money it's going to cost jobs and the stock market will take a hit so that'll look bad for you. Corporate welfare through federal spending keeps the stock market happy and jobs numbers at reasonable levels while those conservative hypocrites are in office.
The winners in our capitalistic society are not risk takers at all. The winners are the ones that hire the most lobbyists. Why are the three counties in America with the highest per-capita income all nestled neatly around the US capital? Is that where all the risk takers just happen to live, or are they taking a wedge of the no-bid pentagon contracts.
When's the last time a conservative cut the federal budget?
@wildgrass saidAnd I, on the other hand, ‘notice’ that you do not mention ‘personal freedom’ in this post, which was YOUR issue, an issue which I responded perfectly to. You are acting like a liberal, like Handy, Kev, et al, flying all over and leaving original issues/debates as if they never existed. Whew.
I notice you're writing about capitalism now and not conservatism. Conservative ideas aren't anywhere near what you're describing (look at the US federal spending for example). Yet again your happy little capitalistic scenario is the fake town they built in High Plains Drifter. It's make believe.
A person asks a Corp to hire him. The corp says maybe we have to see if the ...[text shortened]... dge of the no-bid pentagon contracts.
When's the last time a conservative cut the federal budget?
So, here you draaaag me into some unrelated (as I see it) issue. I agree there is too much spending on both sides, Bush disappointed big-time. Your analogy of Corp having to bankrupt.... are you saying that is govt fault. It is the Board’s fault. And they hardly get a ‘hefty profit’ , unless of course there is fraud. Fraud has nothing to do with this discussion. And, How will they make sure their investors keep money they invested into a bankrupt company.?
You seem to object to board members looking for opportunities elsewhere,,,like, which industries might have a better chance of succeeding in this land of opportunity? You discount opportunity?? Jesus.
“We’re going to complain that if we don’t get money it will cost jobs”? That is a given of course, but what are you saying? The govt should SAVE ALL sinking corporations so that there will be jobs? I hope you are not saying that. There is already o e proven Marxist on this forum, that is enough.
You lot sure talk about govt. a lot. Venezuela has a government. That is one we could talk about .
Do you have any idea how impt lobbyists are? How can a congressman know everything there is to know in every bill to be voted on without a lobbyist to fill him in. I just got elected last week and have to vote on a soybean bill tomorrow. I’ve never even seen a soybean.
The winners in a capitalistic society, and I know several, indeed took risks. I risked plenty on Tesla, CRWD, etc. I risked by investing in a small biz before Covid. You are wrong. Winners usually take risks.
People live close to DC who need to be there to grow their businesses. Don’t get your point there. Everything I say here presumes all business/govt relations to be above board.
And that’s all I got to say about that !
🤔
@averagejoe1 saidNo you clearly claimed that you would have your private health insurance option ripped out of your hands and that simply isn’t true.
Carry on with your venomous nitpicking of common sense. I am saying in my entire post that people should be responsible for themselves. (Remember, I am the one that says women want to get pregnant, the process is taught in high school) If people are not responsible for themselves, you are saying that WE need to be responsible for them. Amaxing. How about you start a new ...[text shortened]... y. Then, how about a house and a car. Cell phone? College? College same as Fire protection?!?!?!?
Having a debate with you joe is like herding cats. You keep flip flopping about saying one thing then when you get a reply you act as if your original assertion was never made. Then go off on a rambling stream of consciousness throwing up cliches like personal responsibility when you really mean selfishness and personal greed.
And those are just the snippets that aren’t meaningless right wing mumbo jumbo.
06 Jan 21
@averagejoe1 said@averagejoe1 said
I gotta say this. I wrote that in about 2 minutes,. It just flows, with a person that is a full capitalist conservative. I say this so that you might get where we conservatives are coming from. And it's like, when I was writing that, this is SO common sense, so rational. Then I think, what else could it be (except for socialism, of course.). So I am curious, f ...[text shortened]... (here it comes..........)everyone else take care of themselves ?!?!?!?!?? Is that so unrealistic?
“I gotta say this. I wrote that in about 2 minutes,. It just flows, with a person that is a full capitalist conservative. I say this so that you might get where we conservatives are coming from.”
Ha cheers I would never have known. Back here on planet Earth it’s called the ramblings of a mentally deficient troglodyte.
06 Jan 21
@kevcvs57 saidI’m getting that you do not take personal responsibility as a virtue. You just think it is no big deal? How about self-reliance. How about charity. Yeah, I write about stuff that makes dependent libs uncomfortable. Well, somebody has to say it, help ward off the temptation of socialism, which of course, you are all I favor of. You are, you know....
No you clearly claimed that you would have your private health insurance option ripped out of your hands and that simply isn’t true.
Having a debate with you joe is like herding cats. You keep flip flopping about saying one thing then when you get a reply you act as if your original assertion was never made. Then go off on a rambling stream of consciousness throwing up cli ...[text shortened]... and personal greed.
And those are just the snippets that aren’t meaningless right wing mumbo jumbo.
I sent a link on another post, Kamala and Bernie (Biden has no power ) saying to abolish private health insurance. Let me know if you can’t google it. Try. “Kamala Bernie abolish”, that shoulddo it. I’ m always having to bring you boys along.
06 Jan 21
@kevcvs57 saidOK. Get serious .....what in my post are ramblings of a deficient poster?
@averagejoe1 said
“I gotta say this. I wrote that in about 2 minutes,. It just flows, with a person that is a full capitalist conservative. I say this so that you might get where we conservatives are coming from.”
Ha cheers I would never have known. Back here on planet Earth it’s called the ramblings of a mentally deficient troglodyte.
06 Jan 21
@kevcvs57 saidNote that I often point out with facts how the liberal posters here are constantly flip-flopping all over the place. You know what, I know, everybody knows it.
No you clearly claimed that you would have your private health insurance option ripped out of your hands and that simply isn’t true.
Having a debate with you joe is like herding cats. You keep flip flopping about saying one thing then when you get a reply you act as if your original assertion was never made. Then go off on a rambling stream of consciousness throwing up cli ...[text shortened]... and personal greed.
And those are just the snippets that aren’t meaningless right wing mumbo jumbo.
Then youmebtion,imply, perhaps,That average Joe is guilty of selfishness and personal greed. What in the world is your basis for saying that? That would be an interesting discussion.
06 Jan 21
1 edit
@averagejoe1 saidAs a former Republican, I totally see where you're coming from. But we don't live in a capitalistic society anymore. Republicans broke it with bailouts for banks and incredibly eye popping corporate welfare checks. A trillion dollars is an absurd amount of money to spend on a failed military project. That's a million millions. A million millions paid to military contractors who were never held accountable for delivering a working product. And that's just one project. Those companies are receiving hundreds of millions in contracts every darn year.
And I, on the other hand, ‘notice’ that you do not mention ‘personal freedom’ in this post, which was YOUR issue, an issue which I responded perfectly to. You are acting like a liberal, like Handy, Kev, et al, flying all over and leaving original issues/debates as if they never existed. Whew.
So, here you draaaag me into some unrelated (as I see it) issue. I agree the ...[text shortened]... iness/govt relations to be above board.
And that’s all I got to say about that !
🤔
Honestly, I'd rather the government trimmed the fat and cut their budget to a reasonable size, but it'll never happen. I've heard dozens of politicians saying that on the stump only to head to Washington and vote for the first bailout on their desk. If we're giving away free money, I'd rather give it to the individuals and not the failed businesses.
