10 Jan 05
Originally posted by WulebgrWhat people spend their money on is not the same time I'm
If they only know two chords and they sing praise, God will hear them.
But, to let them perform in public, to applause no less, and to buy their records, making them rich and famous ...
John Coltrane repeated "A love supreme" over and over near the end of an instrumental jazz piece; he did this after a spiritual encounter, the details of which remain ...[text shortened]... old as I, and still moves.
In forty years Amy Grant and Jars of Clay will be long forgotten.
talking about. I also do not care if some guy gets rich on playing
two cords, more power to him.
Christian music blesses both us and God, the style is simply the
style nothing more than that. What is in the heart of one singing
Amazing Grace and the spirit they have matters more than the
beat they are singing it to, of the instruments being used too.
I also disagree with you on Amy Grant and Jars of Clay, my CDs
will last longer than that. 🙂
Kelly
10 Jan 05
Originally posted by KellyJayBut don't forget we must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
Man, I could not disagree more with you here! Music that causes us to
forget this world and worship, be it with 3 cords or lyrics like "How
beautiful" is music that pleases God when we sing and worship, that is
the point of it all. It gives joy to us, and pleases God, what more could
you desire?
I do agree, that some music, like some preaching is l ...[text shortened]... ledge, and so on. If the desire is there to
please and worship God, don’t belittle it.
Kelly
10 Jan 05
Originally posted by WulebgrIt's like when you're REALLY hungry and all you can think about is food . Or really thristy , all you can think about is water . They're depriving themselves of a normal and essential human function , so that's all they can think about . It gets nutty after too long , like the aberant behavior,thoughts, attitudes anorexics have with food and self image after the disease has progressed unchecked for years . They see another person eating a sandwich and get grossed out .
again sex is more important, as a sin, than killing babies--and other such crimes committed in the name of righteousness
I think the lack of it, as the Righteous Reverend alleged, hardly explains the obsession Christians have with sex and pornography. There is something more going on.
11 Jan 05
Originally posted by WulebgrI categorically disagree. While some chants
One could say the same of Gregorian chants if not for the fact that they are mystical and moving. With the chants, there is something spiritual in the simplicity, and vapid has never described Catholic theology no matter how corrupted it became.
Christian rock appeals to the perpetual adolescent in the American psyche.
have vapid texts, the vast majority attest to
complicated theological concepts; they aim to
teach a liturgical lesson, reinforce a theological
concept. 'Jesus loves me, uh-huh, uh-huh' does
not do this.
As for the 'simplicity' of the chants, I'd beg to differ.
While some of the strophic hymns are 'simple' in
the sense that there is a limited pitch-field, they
are by no means simple to write. Each neume in
a given chant can have inflection, depending on the
kind of neume (torculus, quilisma, &c), which makes
the chanting of them a difficult task indeed. Most
recordings I've heard are downright boring, largely
because they try to sing the monophonic lines as
if they were a 17th century melody.
Anyway, saying that Gregorian chants are simple
is anachronisitic; music 'evolved' (for lack of a better
word). It's like saying Bach's harmonies are simplistic
because he never modulated to the flat Neopolitan
(like Liszt or Brahms).
There is a lot of rock that is very complicated musically;
but most of it is trash, just like most Baroque or
Reniassance music is trash. However, we've thrown out
the trash (that is, it didn't survive into common repertories).
We haven't had the distance from Christian Rock to realize
how ephemeral and trashy 95% of it is.
As for the idea that God is happy with any praise, I
think that's crap. I don't think God is interested in
cheap thrills. I've said before that I think that if you
aren't working hard to be a Christian, then you've
missed the point. Three chords, single-lined,
monothematic tripe, while it 'feels good,' is not hard.
Three weeks of guitar lessons (and a capo), 10 minutes
of rehearsal and you can do 50% of it.
I've heard good contemporary music done well -- it's
rare -- and it's very effective when it is.
Sensational Christian Trash: Sorry, God deserves better
than that. Would you have a cirborium made of
'Tupperware?' Would you have a Crucifix made out of
Styrofoam? Would you have plastic lawn chairs as pews?
Would you have tailgate parties before Sunday Services?
Of course not, if you could help it. You'd scrape and
work and strive for the best and most refined experience
possible. It's not that the materials are intrinsically negative,
but the fact that you didn't work hard to have something
presentable in 'God's House.' Same goes with the music
you do. If you aren't working hard, stretching your choir
both in how the execute the music and the repertory they use,
then you are being lazy and biased. If you are restricting
yourself to the last 20 or 30 years of Christian music repertory,
you do a disservice to all of those who have praised God in
the past.
I find it wildly ironic that, in a day and age where the King
James Bible has so much following, that music composed
more than 40 years ago is considered 'dated or stilted.'
It just doesn't make sense.
Nemesio
11 Jan 05
Originally posted by RBHILLYes, in Spirit and in Truth, and I don't believe the number of cords
But don't forget we must worship Him in Spirit and in Truth.
used, the number of words used, or the beat has anything to do
with either of those. The world is full of those that belong to God
that have yielded their lives to him, they have various levels of
skills and talents, the have various levels of many things, but one
thing they all have in common and in great supply and that is the
grace of the Almighty God given to us through Jesus Christ, and
because of that we sing, dance, making joyful noises. He has
given us a great gift, that we can now have a relationship with
Him.
Kelly
11 Jan 05
Originally posted by KellyJayJust wait till the day you hear Angels sing, we will probably be in awe.
Yes, in Spirit and in Truth, and I don't believe the number of cords
used, the number of words used, or the beat has anything to do
with either of those. The world is full of those that belong to God
that have yielded their lives to him, they have various levels of
skills and talents, the have various levels of many things, but one
thing they all have ...[text shortened]... l noises. He has
given us a great gift, that we can now have a relationship with
Him.
Kelly
11 Jan 05
Originally posted by eagles54Absolutely. Just because I am a fair organist (no genius, to
But not everyone can express themselves well. Isn't the intent of the praiser the thing?
say the least) doesn't mean I should give it up, just because
I can't play like Saint Cecilia. However, if I only knew one
piece, and four hymns, all in the same key and never tried
to expand, then my 'intent' is to be stagnant, my 'intent' is
to be lazy.
Someone who can play four chords, can, one day, play five
with work. A group who can only sing in unison can,
with work sing in two, three and four parts.
When I started at the church at which I am employed, the
choir had some very bad habits with breathing, diction,
balance and (most painfully) watching the conductor. Over
the past few years, I've been working with them, helping
them improve on these things. They've never sounded better,
but it's not by accident. They made the conscious decision to
improve: their 'intent' was to be a better, more developed choir
than they were, say, two years ago. They now sing music from the
10th century, 15th, 18th, 20th and 21st century. They learn about
10 to 15 new pieces a year, of different genres, classical and
contemporary, fast and slow, accompanied and a cappella.
They are praising God to the best of their ability, but not restricting
themselves to all that is familiar, but opened to the possibility that
17th-century German music is just as revelatory as 21st century
American music is.
This communicates the 'intent' to praise God to the best of one's
ability. Not singing the same-old 'same-old' over and over. Do
they sound like King's College? No, of course not. But they sound
more like them than two years ago, and I expect them continue to
improve in that direction over the next two years.
If it's not work -- if you are not improving -- your 'intent' is to be
lazy. Three chords = lazy. Theologically barren texts = lazy.
Nemesio
11 Jan 05
Originally posted by NemesioYour points are very well taken Nemesio and I understand your side of the issue. I'll stay out of this further because I don't know well the music in question. Thank you for your take.
Absolutely. Just because I am a fair organist (no genius, to
say the least) doesn't mean I should give it up, just because
I can't play like Saint Cecilia. However, if I only knew one
piece, and four hymns, all in the same key and never tried
to expand, then my 'intent' is to be stagnant, my 'intent' is
to be lazy.
Someone who can play fou ...[text shortened]... 'intent' is to be
lazy. Three chords = lazy. Theologically barren texts = lazy.
Nemesio
eagle
12 Jan 05
"hi my name christian i am a catholic. post comments share your mind. god will punish non belivers so believe and worship an praise god and jesus. pray be free from sexual sin. convert more people to god. love and praise him."
lsurocks1, do yourself a favour, never start a topic like this again. I do not believe it is very Christ-like.
Why pick on Sexual sin? Apparently the Christian divorce rate is equal to that of non-Christians, apparently the premarital sex rates are pretty close as well. However I have no statistics on that. One more thing, you just open yourself up to being publicly eviscerated, as is what kind of happened in this case.
KellyJay, I think Jars of Clay will be largely forgotten in 40 years, as where I live, it is forgotten now. They were those guys that played some music. However, your cd’s may last a thousand years, in some garbage dump.
I am not a huge music buff, I enjoy Jazz, Classical music, Instrumentals, Swing, and a bit of everything. The most annoying thing is that music lyrics often tend to be focused on people and not God. I believe this causes the songs to have a rather bad theology, but how much theological background can a 20 year old really have? At that age people are but wee babes in the woods. Wisdom appears to exist primarily among those people with grey hair, maybe they should write music for teenagers.
I believe the worst thing I have ever heard was St. Patrick’s Breastplate/The Deer’s Cry in a heavy metal context. I felt like weeping, not literally, but it was quite awful. However, it was quite impressive that a punk/heavy metal band would use something that ancient and amazing.
Moldy Crow, Christianity is not against sex or a good time, I believe some things have been twisted out of context or taken the wrong way. Premarital sex tends, apparently, not to be a very beneficial way of life. It tends to be one of those things that comes back to bite you or your partner(s) on the ass later on.