26 May 06
Originally posted by shavixmirPoint taken with regard to second to last paragraph. I think we established there was a difference but I guess we should have been discussing what type of rape fantasy we were talking about.
[b]Biology
I can't believe I'm gonna get seriously involved in the debate here, but I don't have anything better to do (except promote my blog: http://shavixmir.blogspot.com).
One of the most important things about satisfying anybody is biology.
What does something look like and what does it do.
When do you do something and when do yo ...[text shortened]... distinction between the two.
And now I'm off to play pooh sticks again.[/b]
Point taken on final paragraph too. I once attempted pooh sticks from the Medway bridge where the M2 Motorway passes Chatham. It's a good 100 foot in the air with a motorway running over it. Now THAT's extreme Pooh Sticks
27 May 06
OMG! I refuse to believe there are people out there so unimaginative or so in denial as to state they cannot relate to any deviant fantasizing on any level.
Fantasy is good. I completely and whole heartedly indulge in every sick, twisted and tormenting fantasy I have and I don't feel bad or guilty about it one single bit.
It's the sign of a healthy mind that can cleary distinguish between fact and fiction. The fact that I can indulge in every form of perverse imagination is what makes me able to function on a sane level in the real world.
Personally I think that grown men having fantasies about young girls is common....my God just look on the net to find teenage sex exploited at it's best.....I don't believe it's a sign of mental instability so much as a point in time that sex is very new and exciting for a man.
For a man who has grown and experienced a multitude of sexual experiences it's always those first experiences (often as a teenager) that remain the most arousing in his mind. Hence the sexual fantasizing of young developing girls.
It has nothing to do with being a phedophile and everything to do with the connection of sexual experiences at that point in time for many men.
Either way I believe the supression of sexual fantasies and thoughts would be deemed more unhealthy and potentially more dangerous that the occasional indulgence in mental debauchery.
27 May 06
Originally posted by mokkoInteresting post.
OMG! I refuse to believe there are people out there so unimaginative or so in denial as to state they cannot relate to any deviant fantasizing on any level.
Fantasy is good. I completely and whole heartedly indulge in every sick, twisted and tormenting fantasy I have and I don't feel bad or guilty about it one single bit.
It's the sign of a healthy min ...[text shortened]... ealthy and potentially more dangerous that the occasional indulgence in mental debauchery.
Fantasy is good. Indeed. I don't think anybody has said it isn't. Nobody has said feeling guilty about your fantasy is good either.
You mention deviant fantasy. How do you define "deviant" as your deviant might be different than mine. I think this is the point. "debauchery" is not a problem in my book.
My personal question throughout this thread has been to determine how people find actual violence arousing. Bondage is one thing but fantasizing about an actual rape with all the violence, shock and trauma that victims usually go through is not arousing for me and I wonder how it is for others.
I'm not sure using "teenage sex exploited" is too good an example of separating fact and fiction but I get your point. I think you're wrong about guys finding their first sexual encounters the most exciting.
As far as I am concerned and I bet 99% of men have the same experience, the first sexual experience was a bit crappy looking back on it. Lots of fumbling, heavy breathing, steamed windows, uncomfortable positions (as first experiences are usually carried out in a parents house or in public (mine was a church)) and over fairly quickly. Perhaps it depends how old you were at the time though.
Far more arousing are the ones in later life when I and the girl I was with were far less inhibited, knew what we were doing and didn't have to worry about mom hearing any peculiar noises.
To sum up I personally think that finding something "dirty" or "debauched" arousing just BECAUSE it's dirty or debauched is a sign of some kind of issue which may not even be a greater issue than all the other ones we have but is still an issue. Personally though, there's very little I would actually consider dirty or debauched except actual physical harm.
27 May 06
Originally posted by WheelyI take pleasure in violent fantasies. They don't always have to be violent against myself. It's a mixing pot of different scenarios but it helps to release pent up anger in an acceptable way.
Interesting post.
Fantasy is good. Indeed. I don't think anybody has said it isn't. Nobody has said feeling guilty about your fantasy is good either.
You mention deviant fantasy. How do you define "deviant" as your deviant might be different than mine. I think this is the point. "debauchery" is not a problem in my book.
My personal question throu ...[text shortened]... ittle I would actually consider dirty or debauched except actual physical harm.
While I wouldn't find violence sexually arousing in real life I do find fantasies of an extreme violent nature rather satisfying.
I didn't mean to suggest that a guys first experience is his best....just the most intense emotionally. While sex as a "kid" is clumsy and 3rd rate at best it's still super charged with arousal.
And while sex is much better as you get older and explore sex with an open and willing partner it evokes seperate emotions.
While the first time I had sex was a definate dissapointment nothing has ever compared to the emotional level of excitement and adventure as those very few firsts.
I'm curious now to know wether anyone thinks there is a difference in a man fatasizing about a 16 year old girl as to a woman fantasizing about a 16 year old boy. Do the same rules apply in each scenario?
I would love to define deviant to you but in the context of the conversation and the media through which it's being carried out I'd rather stay vague on the discription.
27 May 06
Originally posted by mokkoExcuse me if the typesetting goes a bit screwy here. First time I've tried it on this site.
I take pleasure in violent fantasies. They don't always have to be violent against myself. It's a mixing pot of different scenarios but it helps to release pent up anger in an acceptable way.
While I wouldn't find violence sexually arousing in real life I do find fantasies of an extreme violent nature rather satisfying.
I didn't mean to suggest that a ...[text shortened]... e media through which it's being carried out I'd rather stay vague on the discription.
I take pleasure in violent fantasies. They don't always have to be violent against myself. It's a mixing pot of different scenarios but it helps to release pent up anger in an acceptable way.
This I sort of understand and I suspect you're right given you see it as a way to release pent up anger. Do you mix the sex and violence though? Personally I hate that link between sex and violence. They are two completely separate things in my book and have no place being in the same sentence as they so often are. I mean real violence though, not just play violence or even actual violence between two consenting people.
I didn't mean to suggest that a guys first experience is his best....just the most intense emotionally. While sex as a "kid" is clumsy and 3rd rate at best it's still super charged with arousal.
Still feel that any sex with any new partner is equally super charged with arousal and not only that, after the early years you're better at satisfying that arousal too.
I'm curious now to know wether anyone thinks there is a difference in a man fatasizing about a 16 year old girl as to a woman fantasizing about a 16 year old boy. Do the same rules apply in each scenario?
I think we were talking younger than this though. Sixteen is perfectly legal in most of Europe and anyway, as I am older now, few sixteen year olds look sexy enough to me. If we take the age down to say, twelve then personally I don't see any difference if we're talking about a boy or a girl. On the other hand, I'd have been very happy, at 12 if my History teacher had taken me around the block once or twice, she was cute!
The question we were discussing then, is whether a fantasy about sex with a twelve year old girl (we seem to have been men) is something to worry about. Given that we felt a twelve year old is generally not even fully developed and not (for most of us) in the slightest bit sexually attractive we thought maybe it was.
I would love to define deviant to you but in the context of the conversation and the media through which it's being carried out I'd rather stay vague on the discription.
Point taken, shame though 🙂
27 May 06
Originally posted by WheelyYes the sex and violence are deeply intertwined. And not in a friendly bum spanking kind of way either. But it's only fantasy so anything goes. The darker and more explicit the pain and sex co-incide the more arousing the FANTASY.
Excuse me if the typesetting goes a bit screwy here. First time I've tried it on this site.
[b]I take pleasure in violent fantasies. They don't always have to be violent against myself. It's a mixing pot of different scenarios but it helps to release pent up anger in an acceptable way.
This I sort of understand and I suspect you're right given you ...[text shortened]... out I'd rather stay vague on the discription.[/b]
Point taken, shame though 🙂[/b]
None of it would ever be taken out of the realm of fantasy and into reality on any level. Which makes it perfectly ok in my books. And if sex and violence wasn't such a popular theme in human sexuality how would you account for the popularity of many horror flicks? They're based on mainly sexually violent scenarios and people eat it up.
On the issue of age in relevance to sexual thoughts I know many young girls at the age of 10 that are well into the development stages. Does this automatically make them sexually appealing? Of course not. Sex is an attitude for the most part. It's 90% mental 10% physical.
I would venture to say the fantasy would include the corrupting of innocence on that level. While other fantasies would include being corrupted. But the whole issue being natural human fantasizing as opposed to actual reality.
If it was possible for me to be labelled and condemned for every moraly corrupt fantasy I've ever had I'd never see the light of day again. And some of these fantasies began at the young age many are referring to as socially unaceptable to be fantasizing about.
Seems a bit out of sorts if you ask me. When does the average person begin indulging in sexual fatasies? I know for myself, and many of the friends I know, such thoughts began as early as 9 or 10. Just because we have shaped a culture that protects and prolongs childhood far beyond the historical definitions of childhood doesn't mean that nature soon bends to fit our molds.
There are many other cultures and sexual practises that take place in the world other than what western society has deemed fit. As a result of conforming to societies demands people have enacted a natural expression through fantasies.
The real crimes ensue when those fantasies are repressed or the person is led to believe that they're sinfull, evil or perversed in having them.
28 May 06
Originally posted by mokkoI've been following the conversation with interest and don't really want to get involved but I do want to ask, mokko, how you can be so certain that "None of it would ever be taken out of the realm of fantasy and into reality on any level."
[b]Yes the sex and violence are deeply intertwined. And not in a friendly bum spanking kind of way either. But it's only fantasy so anything goes. The darker and more explicit the pain and sex co-incide the more arousing the FANTASY.
None of it would ever be taken out of the realm of fantasy and into reality on any level. Which makes it perfectly ok in my books.
I've never felt all that confident about the line between fantasy and reality and have always wondered if it's possible that my fantasies might become someone else's reality, or someone else's fantasies might become my reality. Or perhaps that my fantasies might gradually become my reality.
28 May 06
Originally posted by DelmerTrust me I wasn't going to get involved in this whole debacle either. But the fact that I have always indulged in a fullfilling fantasy life while living an extremely functional reality has forced me to question some of the views expressed.
I've been following the conversation with interest and don't really want to get involved but I do want to ask, mokko, how you can be so certain that "None of it would ever be taken out of the realm of fantasy and into reality on any level."
I've never felt all that confident about the line between fantasy and reality and have always wondered if it's possib ...[text shortened]... might become my reality. Or perhaps that my fantasies might gradually become my reality.
I'm very curious to know in what possible scenario would your personal inner fantasies become someone elses reality (and vice versa?)
It would all boil down to functional and rational human thought. There will always be dysfunctions of the brain which would allow for a person to cross the line and act out certain socially unaceptable fantasies.
I can say with 100% assurity that I indulge in many fantasies that would never cross over into reality. Mainly because I would never want them to. I enjoy my mental escapades weather they be sexual in nature or not. It's no different than getting lost in a good suspense novel or being caught up in an action. It's a very well known fact that they're for entertainment purposes and are not taken into the real world when the book is closed or the movie done.
28 May 06
Originally posted by mokkoGood post.
Yes the sex and violence are deeply intertwined. And not in a friendly bum spanking kind of way either. But it's only fantasy so anything goes. The darker and more explicit the pain and sex co-incide the more arousing the FANTASY.
None of it would ever be taken out of the realm of fantasy and into reality on any level. Which makes it perfectly ok in my boo ...[text shortened]... or the person is led to believe that they're sinfull, evil or perversed in having them.
You are obviously one of life's few free thinkers and sensible with it. However, I'm not sure where this post takes the discussion because there's nothing you have said that can be disputed but for me at least, your post highlights differences between individual people.
I am personally left wondering why I do not find violent or innocence corrupting fantasies arousing and you do (or at least can understand them). I would agree that if I found them actually repellent and got all angry about the idea then it would be me that had to go and see the shrink, not you 🙂 By the way, I'm not sure I would use the word "corrupting" either as I'm not sure how sex does that.
I suspect I still feel that a fantasy that includes someone in real distress is a bit worrying in some respects but accept that ultimately it would depend on the fantasizer's ability to separate fact from fiction.
Thanks for the post.
28 May 06
Originally posted by WheelyWell the initial discussion seemed to spur on disgust and aboration over men fantasizing about young girls and the moral outrage that ensued.
Good post.
You are obviously one of life's few free thinkers and sensible with it. However, I'm not sure where this post takes the discussion because there's nothing you have said that can be disputed but for me at least, your post highlights differences between individual people.
I am personally left wondering why I do not find violent or innocence ...[text shortened]... epend on the fantasizer's ability to separate fact from fiction.
Thanks for the post.
I tend to disagree with the moral outcry knowing full well my own indescretions haven't always been so wholesome in nature. But knowing full well the expected response to such depravities I would never share in my personal thoughts and inner desires (if they can be called such)
But I certainly don't condemn myself for them or anyone else for that matter who manifests such thoughts in the pure and harmelss matter in which they develope.
I would however be much more concerned with those individuals who seek to take it to the next level and actually make such fantasies a reality.
If a man who has the odd fantasy about a young girl is a phedophile than I'm a d@mn lesbian 😕
A ridiculous notion by all accounts, yet by certain peoples interpertations of fantasies, the truth none the less.
28 May 06
Originally posted by mokkoOh, come on. You know you're a lesbian. 😛
If a man who has the odd fantasy about a young girl is a phedophile than I'm a d@mn lesbian 😕
And I've fantasised about this for years. Can we do it for real (young being young lesbian adult)?
Who would have a problem with it if you said yes? Two lesbians getting it on won't hurt anyone. Two lesbians getting it on while I watch, won't either. There's nothing wrong with acting out such a fantasy, the way I see it.
And we're all sane enough to understand where the line is drawn so I don't even get why this whole matter became such an involved discussion. I thought most sane people would realise the difference between fantasy and real life seeing as how we watch so many movies and read so many books that are extremely disturbing if we thought for a second they were real. To create such entertainment you must think such thoughts; to appreciate such material you must also have thought about such things.
Either there are only a handful of sane people on this site, or it has become a relative term.
28 May 06
Originally posted by mokkoI was aware that most women fantasised about other women to some extent or other (at least many of the women I have been with have mentioned it) so that would make you decidedly normal. However, I wasn't aware that many men have fantasies about young girls (I mean properly young girls, not women of a young age)
If a man who has the odd fantasy about a young girl is a phedophile than I'm a d@mn lesbian 😕
28 May 06
Originally posted by WheelyThen that's where it becomes very subjective and very difficult to determine.
I was aware that most women fantasised about other women to some extent or other (at least many of the women I have been with have mentioned it) so that would make you decidedly normal. However, I wasn't aware that many men have fantasies about young girls (I mean properly young girls, not women of a young age)
Who's to say what men "normally" fatasize about if they feel admitting such fantasies will bring judgement and ridicule?
There was a point in time where lesbian fantasies were deemed equally offensive. Yet over time they have become accepted so now many women feel safe about admitting them. But when it comes to highly stigmatised terms such as phedolilia people are not as open to discussing, never mind admitting to, such fantasies.
What evidence or proof could there ever be on how common such a fantasy is if people simply deny having them. I refuse to believe it's such a rare occurance simply due to the demand for child pornography. Obviously It's in this very denial and supression that I believe the actual crimes of humanity stem from.
When you look at the supressive nature of sexuality in religious sects you'll see a surprising corralation to sexual crimes being envoked by those supressed.
28 May 06
Originally posted by stockenLol...I am not a lesbian....although sometimes considering the alternative I don't think it's a bad way to go. 😛
Oh, come on. You know you're a lesbian. 😛
And I've fantasised about this for years. Can we do it for real (young being young lesbian adult)?
Who would have a problem with it if you said yes? Two lesbians getting it on won't hurt anyone. Two lesbians getting it on while I watch, won't either. There's nothing wrong with acting out such a fantasy, the wa ...[text shortened]... r there are only a handful of sane people on this site, or it has become a relative term.