02 Feb 23
@no1marauder saidGo for it and I’ll find the ones that explain that what started as a peaceful protest was turned into a bloodbath by the pro Russian president who employed militias including violent criminals released for the purpose of crushing the student led demonstrations which culminated in the elected parliament stripping the president of his powers rather than the armed insurrection that you claimed it to be. In the end the students had to arm themselves to survive, I’ll also provide a link to a film of the euro Maidan protests and people can judge for themselves who the violent mob actually were
I'll find the articles AGAIN when I have time.
My stance isn't "pro-Russian" in anyway, shape or form. I do oppose mass escalation of the war which will just lead to more death, misery and destruction to both the Ukrainian and Russian People. The West should be pushing for negotiations, not complying with every demand for more sophisticated weapons from Zelensky. If t ...[text shortened]... uires a politically unpopular face to face with Putin and Western leaders including Biden, so be it.
02 Feb 23
@metal-brain saidHahaha oh my lord the irony
@kevcvs57
“The world will not be destroyed by those who do evil, but by those who watch them without doing anything.”
― Albert Einstein
https://www.reuters.com/world/us-readies-2-bln-plus-ukraine-aid-package-with-longer-range-weapons-sources-2023-01-31/
02 Feb 23
@kevcvs57
Realizing NATO’s war with Russia will likely end unfavorably, the US is test-driving an exit offer. But why should Moscow take indirect proposals seriously, especially on the eve of its new military advance and while it is in the winning seat?
https://thecradle.co/article-view/20878/a-panicked-empire-tries-to-make-russia-an-offer-it-cant-refuse
Ukraine is losing the war. Everybody wants the war to end except you because you are repeating outdated propaganda.
02 Feb 23
@kevcvs57 saidBe sure to include footage of the funerals of the 13 police officers killed by the peaceful, nonviolent protesters.
Go for it and I’ll find the ones that explain that what started as a peaceful protest was turned into a bloodbath by the pro Russian president who employed militias including violent criminals released for the purpose of crushing the student led demonstrations which culminated in the elected parliament stripping the president of his powers rather than the armed insurrection ...[text shortened]... lm of the euro Maidan protests and people can judge for themselves who the violent mob actually were
IF the police used excessive force and IF the President ordered it in violation of Ukrainian law the Constitutional remedy was for Parliament to draw up articles of impeachment and send them to the Constitutional Court. This was never done so the President's removal was an unconstitutional, illegal act spurred by armed men in occupation of the centers of the Ukraine's government.
Of course Zelensky and his band of cronies aren’t innocent victims in this. Just listen to his rhetoric. Constantly demanding more and more. And from before the invasion exceptionally anti-Russian.
Indeed, his government even banned schools from teaching Russian and Hungarian; languages which are the first language in various regions of the Ukraine.
Putin is a no-good scumbag. And the quicker he swims with the fishes, the bloody better.
Today they unveiled a bust of Stalin (who by all measurements was a scumbag of Hitler proportions) and basically announced the West would be facing more than just conventional weaponry.
Oh goody.
And the West is just as evil as both of them. Supplying weapons and money to fight a proxy war to spread the West’s brand of capitalism in Russia.
As if they give a monkey’s arse about bloody Ukraine.
How many propaganda wins are we going to hand Russia?
Oh, let them fight German panzers again… uhuh… moronic bloody decision.
02 Feb 23
@no1marauder saidOh yeah and be sure you include footage of the well over a hundred demonstrators murdered by the pro Kremlin forces and folks dragged out their cars and beaten well away from protest on suspicion of being pro EU membership.
Be sure to include footage of the funerals of the 13 police officers killed by the peaceful, nonviolent protesters.
IF the police used excessive force and IF the President ordered it in violation of Ukrainian law the Constitutional remedy was for Parliament to draw up articles of impeachment and send them to the Constitutional Court. This was never done so the Presiden ...[text shortened]... tutional, illegal act spurred by armed men in occupation of the centers of the Ukraine's government.
03 Feb 23
@kevcvs57 saidhttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Ukraine
Oh yeah and be sure you include footage of the well over a hundred demonstrators murdered by the pro Kremlin forces and folks dragged out their cars and beaten well away from protest on suspicion of being pro EU membership.
Watch out who’s bed you’re climbing into.
I’ve pointed this out multiple times.
Just because Russia is foul, doesn’t make Ukraine any better.
03 Feb 23
@shavixmir saidYeah Ukraine is a whole lot better and it’s not threatening the rest of Europe.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racism_in_Ukraine
Watch out who’s bed you’re climbing into.
I’ve pointed this out multiple times.
Just because Russia is foul, doesn’t make Ukraine any better.
I bet I could find wiki/racism with the Netherlands or the UK in the title, before we know it we’ll have Americans warning us about racism in Ukraine.
03 Feb 23
@kevcvs57 said"On September 4, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich called a meeting of his political party for the first time in three years, summoning members to an old Soviet-era cinema called Zoryany in Kiev.
Go for it and I’ll find the ones that explain that what started as a peaceful protest was turned into a bloodbath by the pro Russian president who employed militias including violent criminals released for the purpose of crushing the student led demonstrations which culminated in the elected parliament stripping the president of his powers rather than the armed insurrection ...[text shortened]... lm of the euro Maidan protests and people can judge for themselves who the violent mob actually were
For three hours Yanukovich cajoled and bullied anyone who pushed for Ukraine to have closer ties to Russia. A handful of deputies from his Party of Regions complained that their businesses in Ukraine’s Russian-speaking east would suffer if Yanukovich didn’t agree to closer ties with Russia. That set him off.
“Forget about it ... forever!” he shouted at them, according to people who attended the meeting. Instead the president argued for an agreement to deepen trade and other cooperation with the European Union.
Some deputies implored him to change his mind, people who attended the meeting told Reuters. Businessmen warned that a deal with the EU would provoke Russia - Ukraine’s former master in Soviet times - into toughening an economic blockade on Ukrainian goods. Yanukovich stood firm.
“We will pursue integration with Europe,” he barked back, according to three people who attended the meeting. He seemed dead set on looking west."
"What caused the U-turn by the leadership of a country of 46 million people that occupies a strategic position between the EU and Russia?
Public and private arm-twisting by Putin, including threats to Ukraine’s economy and Yanukovich’s political future, played a significant part. But the unwillingness of the EU and International Monetary Fund to be flexible in their demands of Ukraine also had an effect, making them less attractive partners."
"Yanukovich estimated that he needed $160 billion over three years to make up for the trade Ukraine stood to lose with Russia, and to help cushion the pain from reforms the EU was demanding. The EU refused to give such a sum, which it said was exaggerated and unjustified.
The EU offered 610 million euros ($839 million) immediately. EU officials said increased trade, combined with various aid and financing programs, might go some way to providing Kiev with the investment it needed.
An EU source said Ukraine could have been in line to receive at least 19 billion euros in EU loans and grants over the next seven years if it had signed a trade and cooperation agreement and reached a deal with the IMF. But that sum was not mentioned to Ukraine officials during negotiations, said the source.
To Ukraine, there seemed little prospect of getting the EU, already struggling to help its indebted members, to offer a better deal than its original offer."
"Next year Ukraine will have to cover foreign debt payments of $8 billion, according to its finance ministry. It was teetering on the brink of bankruptcy, partly because Moscow was blocking sales of Ukrainian-produced meat, cheese and some confectionery, and scrapping duty-free quotas on steel pipes. Some officials said the restrictions showed what life would be like if Ukraine signed the EU agreement.
Yanukovich’s other hope was the IMF. It rescued Ukraine during the onset of the global financial crisis with a $16.5 billion loan in 2008 when Tymoshenko was prime minister. It also approved a $15.5 billion stand-by program for the Yanukovich government in 2010, disbursing about $3.5 billion, before freezing the program in 2011 because Ukraine failed to meet its conditions. A year later, the program had expired.
The IMF, like the EU, was unwilling to grant the sort of loans Yanukovich wanted under a new program. In a letter dated November 20, it told Ukraine that it would not soften conditions for a new loan and that it would offer only $5 billion, Oliynyk said. And Kiev would have to pay back almost the same amount next year, he said, as part of repayments for the earlier $16.5 billion loan."
"Yanukovich was also offended when he found out Kiev would not be offered a firm prospect of full membership of the EU; he felt Ukraine was being treated as a lesser country to “even Poland”, with which it shares a border."
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-ukraine-russia-deal-special-report-idUSBRE9BI0DZ20131219
The whole article is instructive esp. for someone who repeatedly claims that Yanukovych was a mere "puppet" simply obeying Putin's orders.
@no1marauder saidYeah that was Victor Yanukovich in September 2013.
"On September 4, Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovich called a meeting of his political party for the first time in three years, summoning members to an old Soviet-era cinema called Zoryany in Kiev.
For three hours Yanukovich cajoled and bullied anyone who pushed for Ukraine to have closer ties to Russia. A handful of deputies from his Party of Regions complained that ...[text shortened]... for someone who repeatedly claims that Yanukovych was a mere "puppet" simply obeying Putin's orders.
Fast forward to November of 2013 and we get a diametrically opposed variant of Victor Yanukovich one who is clearly coming back from the Kremlin with a very different attitude, was he enticed or threatened, who knows but he was no longer representing the people or the expressed will of their Parliament.
“ In November 2013, a wave of large-scale protests (known as Euromaidan) began in response to President Yanukovych's sudden decision not to sign a political association and free trade agreement with the European Union (EU), instead choosing closer ties to Russia. Earlier that year, the Verkhovna Rada (Ukrainian parliament) had overwhelmingly approved finalizing the agreement with the EU.[26] Russia had put pressure on Ukraine to reject it.[27] The scope of the protests widened, with calls for the resignation of Yanukovych and the Azarov Government.[28] Protesters opposed what they saw as widespread government corruption and abuse of power, the influence of oligarchs, police brutality, and human rights violations.[29][30] Repressive anti-protest laws fuelled further anger.[29] A large, barricaded protest camp occupied Independence Square in central Kyiv throughout the 'Maidan Uprising'.
In January and February 2014, clashes in Kyiv between protesters and Berkut special riot police resulted in the deaths of 108 protesters and 13 police officers,[20] and the wounding of many others. The first protesters were killed in fierce clashes with police on Hrushevsky Street on 19–22 January. Following this, protesters occupied government buildings throughout the country, and the Azarov Government resigned. The deadliest clashes were on 18–20 February, which saw the most severe violence in Ukraine since it regained independence.[31] Thousands of protesters advanced towards parliament, led by activists with shields and helmets, and were fired on by police snipers.[20] On 21 February, Yanukovych and the parliamentary opposition signed an agreement to bring about an interim unity government, constitutional reforms and early elections.[32] Police abandoned central Kyiv that afternoon and the protesters took control. Yanukovych fled the city that evening.[33]
The next day, 22 February, the Ukrainian parliament voted to remove Yanukovych from office by 328 to 0 (about 73% of the parliament's 450 members).[34][35][36][32] Yanukovych claimed this vote was illegal and asked Russia for help.[37] Russia condemned the events as a "coup". Pro-Russian, counter-revolutionary protests erupted in southern and eastern Ukraine. Russia occupied and then annexed Crimea,[38][39] while armed pro-Russian separatists seized government buildings and proclaimed the independent states of Donetsk and Luhansk, sparking the Donbas War.
Wiki
Regardless of which partisan a view of the Euro Maidan revolution people have or what people think bout the pros and cons of EU membership, it was the expressed will of the Ukrainian people and carried out by their elected representatives in parliament.
If you disagree you cannot pretend that you, like Yanukovich are not taking the side of the Kremlin over the people of sovereign Ukraine.
I would like to know how you square this nit picking over the will of the Ukrainian people shrugging of an imperial power and your own nations founding revolution that threw off the shackles of imperial Britain
03 Feb 23
@kevcvs57 saidHow was it the "expressed will of the Ukrainian People"? In a democracy, that will is expressed in elections, not protests. And it is certainly not expressed by armed ultranationalists seizing control of government buildings to forcibly veto an agreement between the elected President and the three main opposition parties.
Yeah that was Victor Yanukovich in September 2013.
Fast forward to November of 2013 and we get a diametrically opposed variant of Victor Yanukovich one who is clearly coming back from the Kremlin with a very different attitude, was he enticed or threatened, who knows but he was no longer representing the people or the expressed will of their Parliament.
“ In November ...[text shortened]... erial power and your own nations founding revolution that threw off the shackles of imperial Britain
@no1marauder saidMaybe I’m biased towards parliamentary democracy rather than by presidential decree because I’m supposed to live in one.
How was it the "expressed will of the Ukrainian People"? In a democracy, that will is expressed in elections, not protests. And it is certainly not expressed by armed ultranationalists seizing control of government buildings to forcibly veto an agreement between the elected President and the three main opposition parties.
“ The protests were sparked by the Ukrainian government's sudden decision not to sign the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union. Ukraine's parliament had overwhelmingly approved of finalizing the Agreement with the EU,[88] while Russia had put pressure on Ukraine to reject it.”
Whatever happened during Euro Maidan and the aftermath is irrelevant. Ukraine is a Sovereign nation with the right to decide its direction of travel without being invaded by a powerful neighbour that dwarfs it militarily. Ultimately they would have to had a referendum on EU membership all they were trying to do was pull off the dead end road of Russian domination with its oligarchical despotism, corruption and everything that goes with it and at least start building a road to EU membership which would be dependant on Ukraine empowering its democratic institutions and drastically cutting its culture of corruption and all the crap that goes with it.
04 Feb 23
@kevcvs57 saidSorry, it's not that simple. Until the 2014 coup, Ukraine's internal politics was dominated by the issue of how far to tilt to the West or maintain close ties with Russia but that issue was being decided by democratic means. The coup poisoned the well and led some of the Russian ethnic minority areas, esp. the Crimea, to wish to secede from the Ukraine and join Russia. From that point on, we had the Donbass war.
Maybe I’m biased towards parliamentary democracy rather than by presidential decree because I’m supposed to live in one.
“ The protests were sparked by the Ukrainian government's sudden decision not to sign the European Union–Ukraine Association Agreement, instead choosing closer ties to Russia and the Eurasian Economic Union. [b]Ukraine's parliament had overwhelmingly app ...[text shortened]... c institutions and drastically cutting its culture of corruption and all the crap that goes with it.
And Ukraine's government began more and more to treat the remaining Russian minority like a fifth column and trample on their rights, arresting their political leaders, limiting the use of the Russian language, erecting an internal spy network aimed primarily at Ukranian Russians, etc. etc. etc.
It was inevitable that such actions would lead to some negative response from any Russian government even granting that the present one is in the hands of neofascists. And even granting that the invasion was an unjustified Crime against Peace, the underlying issues cannot be resolved simply by pushing for an (unlikely) total military victory by Ukraine.
So the bottom line is the only resolution that makes sense is for a peaceful settlement which respects the wishes for self-determination of those areas of Ukraine which are dominated by an ethnic Russian minority and who's People desire to live under the Russian flag. Obviously that would have to be freely determined by internationally supervised elections in the disputed areas.
The push for more war with all the death and destruction added on to the year of misery already handed the People of Ukraine and Russia merely to fulfill the fantasy of smashing the Russian military is an unworthy goal under such circumstances. The West should be trying to negotiate a long range peaceful solution rather than focusing on an illusionary military victory (which would leave Ukraine in ruins and still politically divided even in the unlikely event it could be achieved).
As unpalatable as it might seem, a summit with Western leaders, Zelensky and Putin in say Istanbul in an effort to end the war and address the concerns of all parties would be a logical and necessary step rather than the escalation so far planned which runs the risk of wider, even possible nuclear, war.
04 Feb 23
@no1marauder saidNo Yanukovich on orders from the Kremlin poisoned the well when he went against the will of the people expressed in their democratically elected parliament you just do not want it to be that simple because of your anti nato / pro Russian stance, probably a nostalgia concerning your youthful days of rebellion.
Sorry, it's not that simple. Until the 2014 coup, Ukraine's internal politics was dominated by the issue of how far to tilt to the West or maintain close ties with Russia but that issue was being decided by democratic means. The coup poisoned the well and led some of the Russian ethnic minority areas, esp. the Crimea, to wish to secede from the Ukraine and join Russia. Fr ...[text shortened]... rather than the escalation so far planned which runs the risk of wider, even possible nuclear, war.
Either that or you like the idea of Europe being carved up between the US and Russian empires, keep Europe weak and dependent on the US military for protection against a rogue / gangster state.
We are not playing that game anymore we wont have a better chance to see the back of that disgusting regime and neither will the Russian people so you carry on pretending that you get to decide for the Ukrainian people who their legitimate government whilst people of conscience keep supporting them in the defence of their sovereignty.
@kevcvs57 saidIn no country that I know of does the Parliament conduct diplomatic negotiations regarding agreements with foreign nations. A general expressed wish of the legislature does not override the chief executive's prerogative to accept or reject specific terms offered by other nations or multinational entities. And the Ukranian Constitution had exact provisions regarding when the removal of the President was authorized by law which were ignored in this case largely because armed ultranationalists had occupied the seats of government power. It was kinda like January 6th, 2021 except with more guns and success.
No Yanukovich on orders from the Kremlin poisoned the well when he went against the will of the people expressed in their democratically elected parliament you just do not want it to be that simple because of your anti nato / pro Russian stance, probably a nostalgia concerning your youthful days of rebellion.
Either that or you like the idea of Europe being carved up betwee ...[text shortened]... ate government whilst people of conscience keep supporting them in the defence of their sovereignty.
Your heroic insistence on fighting to the last Ukranian in your holy crusade to stop Putin's non-existent plan to conquer Europe isn't as laudable as you pretend. Nor is your ignoring of the other issues raised by the 2014 coup regarding the self-determination of Ukraine's oppressed ethnic Russian minority.