29 Apr 05
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemI didn't raise this question in support of anyone elses post with regards to absolving murders of guilt. Punish them without regards to race of course, but if there's an undelying problem don't ignore it. The suggestion is that the problem exists in the US and nowhere else. All I'm suggesting is that, if that is the case and you want to solve the problem, it might be fruitful to ask why that is.
Absolutely not! If a person of any race has citizenship in the US, they are American. Thus, an American problem encompasses African-Americans too. Sorry, but I can't support absolving murderers of guilt while we wait for some vague 'problem' to be fixed.
29 Apr 05
You could settle it properly in the ring?
LLLLLLet's get ready to RRRRRRRUUUUUMMMBBBBBBBBLLLE
In the blue corner, from Hollywood Caaaaliforncaaaation, weighing in at 99 and one half pounds (mostly his magnum) The one time undisputed King of the Arena!!! we have Pluuuuckkky Chuuuuccckkkky Charlton "Let em Have It" Heston ... In the Red corner.. From parts unknown in deepest darkest heeeeeelllllll (or some other commie hole), weighing in at 2 hundred and ninety pounds (without his lunch) Introducing The Farenheit man himself it's Miiiiiiichael "More Scandal" Moooooorrrrre.
ding ding .. "I'll get you mooore you c..sucka" "So you support private armies in texas Mr Heston" "I'll give it to you you commie bast'd."
Meanwhile at home in Wyoming "Gee whizz Mom who's gonna ween this one is Daddy gonna blast that fat guy on TV... Daddy let him have it? "
Don't take me literally, but that is how America often portrays itself in the Simpsons, South Park (I LOVE YOU BAST'DS) Top of the Hill, Endless Movies and in the news and here in the forums
NZ has more handguns per capita than USA but very little gun crime. The owners are vetted by the police and have to go to a couple of lectures before sitting a test. (Booze is free in Vegas casinos if they tried that here they'd be bust in a week.!!)
Outsiders can't really help American society maybe you could all Duct Tape the guns in your pockets.
Good luck America.
29 Apr 05
1 edit
Originally posted by SkorjIf a killing is truly a murder, then there's no good reason for it. I'm not interested in knowing the murderer's motivations. Let a court decide whether it is premeditated or a 'crime of passion'. I just want to see them removed from society so they can't do it again. Far too often we let them off easy and then wonder why we're burying their victims later.
I didn't raise this question in support of anyone elses post with regards to absolving murders of guilt. Punish them without regards to race of course, but if there's an undelying problem don't ignore it. The suggestion is that the problem ...[text shortened]... nt to solve the problem, it might be fruitful to ask why that is.
29 Apr 05
Originally posted by BigDoggProblemI don't know that we're speaking to the same issue here. You're talking about punishing a crime that has occurred and I have no argument with you there. What's been said by others in the forum, however, suggests that perhaps we can have fewer murders in the first place. Wouldn't that be good?
If a killing is truly a murder, then there's no good reason for it. I'm not interested in knowing the murderer's motivations. Let a court decide whether it is premeditated or a 'crime of passion'. I just want to see them removed from society so they can't do it again. Far too often we let them off easy and then wonder why we're burying their victims later.
29 Apr 05
1 edit
Originally posted by SkorjIf we punished murderers properly, we would have less murders. Even if this is no deterrent to would-be killers, it stops the existing killers from killing again.
I don't know that we're speaking to the same issue here. You're talking about punishing a crime that has occurred and I have no argument with you there. What's been said by others in the forum, however, suggests that perhaps we can have fewer murders in the first place. Wouldn't that be good?
We are not going to be able to fix broad-ranging societal ills leading to murder if we can't even deal with the killers we've already caught.
29 Apr 05
2 edits
Originally posted by SkorjTo answer your question, NO! South Africa has the same problem...ask Crowley...even if the US was the only place where blacks commit more interracial crimes, what has that got to do with America society being the problem. A country doesn't make someone a murderer, rapist, or robber. If that was the case, could you say that Canada was the reason you went out and shot somebody to death? See, that's a typical socialist's way of thinking: blame society for everything people do to each other-never blame the individual...people in the US during the 1930s, especially blacks, were dirt-poor during the depression, but there weren't nearly the numbers of murders, rapes, and robberies committed by blacks then as they are today...how do you explain that?. Once again, I don't think black people are inherently evil or prone to crime, but facts are facts and cannot be disputed...aside from the fact that black families are more likely to fatherless, are there any sociologists out there who care to explain this "phenomenon"? 😲
Is the US the only place where blacks commit most of the gun murders? The US isn't the only place that a significant portion of the population is black, but if it's the only place where where they commit most of the murders doesn't indicate the problem lies with America and not with blacks?
30 Apr 05
Originally posted by chancremechanicThere's a world of difference between looking to fix blame and believing there's a way to make things better. If more murders occur among one population than another we can either believe that there is some factor responsible or that one group has suffered a run of really really bad luck. Being a member of a group in which such a factor exists doesn't absolve anyone of any degree of guilt for murder or any other crime. Why take that to mean we shouldn't work on the problems which, if they were fixed, would lead to far fewer tragedies - or are we okay with murder as long as it's punished?
To answer your question, NO! South Africa has the same problem...ask Crowley...even if the US was the only place where blacks commit more interracial crimes, what has that got to do with America society being the problem. A country doesn't make someone a murderer, rapist, or robber. If that was the case, could you say that Canada was the reason yo ...[text shortened]... to fatherless, are there any sociologists out there who care to explain this "phenomenon"? 😲
30 Apr 05
1 edit
Originally posted by SkorjI have no stats but I would guess that at least 25% of murders in the USA are related to gang wars and/or drug deals. Personally I consider those murders a net gain for society. Probably another 25% are related to drugs as addicts kill victims in robberies to get drug money. The remaining 50% are people killing people for all the usual reasons. However in that 50% of murders alcohol would be a major factor in triggering those murders. Certainly violent movies, computer games, rap music and TV contribute to the murder rate but I see no way of measuring those factors.
There's a world of difference between looking to fix blame and believing there's a way to make things better. If more murders occur among one population than another we can either believe that there is some factor responsible or that one gr ...[text shortened]... ragedies - or are we okay with murder as long as it's punished?
30 Apr 05
Originally posted by SkorjI agree with you, and your point is not the contention of my argument. I was simply replying to a New Zealander's subtle accusation that due to racism, there were more blacks in prison in the US......I don't buy it....but you made some valid points that I agree with....
There's a world of difference between looking to fix blame and believing there's a way to make things better. If more murders occur among one population than another we can either believe that there is some factor responsible or that one group has suffered a run of really really bad luck. Being a member of a group in which such a factor exists doesn't absol ...[text shortened]... xed, would lead to far fewer tragedies - or are we okay with murder as long as it's punished?
30 Apr 05
1 edit
Originally posted by chancremechanicI didn't think he was subtle.. we have a few red necks in NZ too...sorry to say.
I agree with you, and your point is not the contention of my argument. I was simply replying to a New Zealander's subtle accusation that due to racism, there were more blacks in prison in the US......I don't buy it....but you made some valid points that I agree with....
We also have a high proportion of non caucasian in prison.
Is the ratio of non-caucasians in the lower socio-economic group similar to the ratio of non-caucasians in jails?
Here gun crime is certainly not race related most murder is domestic related regardless of race.
A high number of our young Maori and Pacific Island kids are emulating the American gang Culture as herioc through crap American TV and filthy Hip Hop.
I find the references to skin colour racially distasteful in the extreme..
01 May 05
1 edit
Originally posted by vhouckhamWe don't have guns in the UK and consequently no one robs a house with a gun cos they have no means of getting one (well, it is extremely difficult......im told.....). People do get shot, but i'd hazard a guess we have about as many people shot in a year as you have shot in a day, easy!
How do you stop a guy who comes in your house (when guns are banned) and the guy has a gun?
a. let him take all your stuff!
b. fight him with no gun (90% of death)
c. get the gun you hide under your bed and blow him away! (or make hi ...[text shortened]... bbers and you can say it was protecting your home and your family!
Having said that, i believe that your crime rate (particularly robbings and shootings) are the result of the vast gulf between rich and poor.
There are people who live in poverty in the UK, but there are social services such as Unemployment benefit, free health care, State pension (couph, if there's any left by the time you need it...) which means the state, even if it is only in a limited way, is there to catch you if you fall. This raises the limit at which people feel they need to resort to crime to survive.
Letting people own a gun to protect themselves will for ever seperate the individual from the collective. It is the Governments responsibility to make the streets safe. By letting everyone walk around with a gun they are in effect saying that your on your own. Hopefully you get what im trying to get at?
01 May 05
Originally posted by marinakatombGood grief, an individual separated from the "collective", what a terrible thought!
We don't have guns in the UK and consequently no one robs a house with a gun cos they have no means of getting one (well, it is extremely difficult......im told.....). People do get shot, but i'd hazard a guess we have about as many people shot in a year as you have shot in a day, easy!
Having said that, i believe that your crime rate (particularly ...[text shortened]... y are in effect saying that your on your own. Hopefully you get what im trying to get at?