Debates
18 Sep 07
05 Oct 07
Originally posted by agrysonThe rythm method is something I need to look at more closely as I see what your saying.
No, I have never denied it is human from post number one. What I have disagreed with is your equating a bunch of human cells with fully formed individuality. They are not the same, I am not picking and choosing which definitions to use, all of them apply, a human embryo is human, but it is not a person, it does not have the capability to internalise its envi ...[text shortened]... wpoints, do you really think you can admonish others for viewing abortion as morally acceptable?
you say that human embryo is human but not a person. Okay let's look at the def of embryo.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/embryo
Main Entry: em·bryo
Pronunciation: 'em-brE-"O
Function: noun
1 a archaic : a vertebrate at any stage of development prior to birth or hatching b : an animal in the early stages of growth and differentiation that are characterized by cleavage, the laying down of fundamental tissues, and the formation of primitive organs and organ systems; especially : the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception
now let's look up "person" and remember the phrase "human individual."
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person
Main Entry: per·son
Pronunciation: 'p&r-s&n
Function: noun
1 : HUMAN, INDIVIDUAL -- sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes
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Now I know you will completely ignore this but it's here for the record.
I have shown you the definition of a person, human, human being etc and you neglect and ignore all of them. Why? Because they only help my case that it is a developing human being/human person.
Anyway here is a better basis/definition of human life besides the DNA stuff.
metabolism,
growth,
reaction to stimuli
reproduction
Metabolism: It contains the function of a metabolism (as it seeks nutrients from food supplied by a mother, and contains a self-governed method of processing these nutrients)
Growth: It has the ability of growth. Nothing new will be added from the moment of conception to the unborn child. Upon conception, the child contains all the chromosomes needed for it’s growth, personality, height, characteristics, etc. All that is needed to fulfill the plan of it’s DNA is time, and nutrient/food. Over time it grows it’s ligaments, nerves, bones, etc. A key here is that nothing will be added after conception: rather it just needs to grow.
Reproduction: It’s DNA already contains the functions it will need to design that needed to reproduce at puberty.
Response to stimuli: This is something overlooked. Many believe an unborn baby is not a alive because it has no pain stimuli, but that is untrue. It contains a pain circuit (connection of nerves from a sense, such as he olfactory nerve) to the brain at early stages in it’s first trimester. This, and the addition of other nerves in the head, feet, hands, gives it the pain-stimuli required to be alive.
Very few bunches of cells "are actively developing into a human being. Obviously human hair cells are never actively developing into a human being. Certain conditions have to apply, like a sperm fertilizing an egg and the four basic reasons of what makes human life. Again at the moment of conception a unique human being is developing into an adult human being. Now if ATY wants to argue that a sperm is half human and the cells that make the sperm up are a quarter-human, he can start another post on that but I am saying that at the moment of conception, you have a unique human individual who is entitled to the same protection as any unique human individual would have.
You are entitled to your closed world of euphemisms where you and unfortunately many others can hide the fact that abortion kills a unique human individual/unique human person but only by trying to know the truth do you ever really know the truth.
I have seen too many pictures of unborn babies to qualify them as "blobs of tissue." Again ATY and many others can call it whatever they want but they can not change the fact that it is a unique human individual being.
05 Oct 07
Originally posted by Sam The ShamThe fact that you call a retarded person under your care a "tard" would seem to indicate that you're in the wrong business.
Once again, all I can do is suggest that you go DO IT and spend a day with the "profoundly" mentally retarded, then see if your opinion is differant from mine.
I know what I'm talking about, do you?
Go clean out the diaper of a 200 pound tard...
05 Oct 07
Originally posted by eagleeye222001Rythm method, thank you considering my arguments on that.
The rythm method is something I need to look at more closely as I see what your saying.
you say that human embryo is human but not a person. Okay let's look at the def of embryo.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/embryo
Main Entry: em·bryo
Pronunciation: 'em-brE-"O
Function: noun
1 a archaic : a vertebrate at any stage of deve ...[text shortened]... y want but they can not change the fact that it is a unique human individual being.
As for the rest of your post...
"Anyway here is a better basis/definition of human life besides the DNA stuff.
metabolism,
growth,
reaction to stimuli
reproduction
"
Please tell me what in that list (unabridged) is limitted to human beings? That's a definition of life, not specifically human life, so I don't see your point, no one ever disagreed that the cells are alive.
"the addition of other nerves in the head, feet, hands, gives it the pain-stimuli required to be alive."... laying down the cables doesn't mean they're any more connected to a thinking self aware human than theya re in a mouse.
From my first post I accepted that the potential is there for this actively developing embryo to become a human being. But you can't kill potential.
"you have a unique human individual who is entitled to the same protection as any unique human individual would have." No, you don't have a unique human individual, maybe if you were able to show what seperates a human embryo from a pig or mouse embryo (because despite differing DNA's, we don't treat mouse and pig embryos specially compared to eachother) So what makes a human embryo different to a mouse embryo apart from the DNA? The potential that it will become a functioning human being. Not that it is, but that it has the potential.
07 Oct 07
Originally posted by agryson
Rythm method, thank you considering my arguments on that.
As for the rest of your post...
"Anyway here is a better basis/definition of human life besides the DNA stuff.
metabolism,
growth,
reaction to stimuli
reproduction
"
Please tell me what in that list (unabridged) is limitted to human beings? That's a definition of life, not specifically h ...[text shortened]... t will become a functioning human being. Not that it is, but that it has the potential.
07 Oct 07
Originally posted by agrysonwhat makes a human embryo different from a pig embryo is that it is a developing human being. I see your wanting to use the word "potential" again.
Rythm method, thank you considering my arguments on that.
As for the rest of your post...
"Anyway here is a better basis/definition of human life besides the DNA stuff.
metabolism,
growth,
reaction to stimuli
reproduction
"
Please tell me what in that list (unabridged) is limitted to human beings? That's a definition of life, not specifically h ...[text shortened]... l become a functioning human being. Not that it is, but that it has the potential.
Well, let's look at it from the point of how many times do we get some alien object from a human embryo? As far as I remember and know, you will always get a human from a human. You wont ever have a human give birth to a cow or a tree etc. Why use the word "potential" when it obviously is?
07 Oct 07
Originally posted by eagleeye222001Squelchbelch makes a good point above, but I'll try to make it very clear to you. The only difference between a pig embryo and a human embryo? Basically it's just the genome, which hasn't even been fully expressed yet to provide anything approaching self-awareness in the stages of development we're discussing.
what makes a human embryo different from a pig embryo is that it is a developing human being. I see your wanting to use the word "potential" again.
Well, let's look at it from the point of how many times do we get some alien object from a human embryo? As far as I remember and know, you will always get a human from a human. You wont ever have a ...[text shortened]... uman give birth to a cow or a tree etc. Why use the word "potential" when it obviously is?
I'm also somewhat confused by your saying...
"...I see your wanting to use the word "potential" again..."
I never stopped using it, and you never even gave an argument against it being a potential human. Apart from of course simply stating your uninformed opinion as fact that it simply is a human, which as we've already established is based on your refusal to accept that there is a difference between a human and something that is human, not on any real information or anything.
You are perfectly able to just say that it is your opinion that abortions are wrong, it quite obviously is your opinion, but stop trying to dress up your opinion as if it is some obvious truth that everyone else is missing. To be honest, all you seem to be trying to do is force your opinion on others, especially others who may be in a very difficult situation, and through your shoddy logic achieve some kind of self absorbed moral high ground from where you can tell others what to do with their bodies under the guise of compassion for children.
08 Oct 07
Originally posted by ArachnarchistIt's not justfied. that's all there is to it. Its a matter of convenience. It allows women who get pregnant to treat getting pregnant like a parking ticket. You pay a few bucks and your free. you don't have to take any other responsibility. It's stupid but it's true.
Abortion = paying parking ticket.
08 Oct 07
Originally posted by ArachnarchistI can see that obviously you've taken this issue and considered it from every possible angle. Well done.
It's not justfied. that's all there is to it. Its a matter of convenience. It allows women who get pregnant to treat getting pregnant like a parking ticket. You pay a few bucks and your free. you don't have to take any other responsibility. It's stupid but it's true.
Abortion = paying parking ticket.
08 Oct 07
Originally posted by ArachnarchistI never look at profiles, but i am 100% positive that you are male.
It's not justfied. that's all there is to it. Its a matter of convenience. It allows women who get pregnant to treat getting pregnant like a parking ticket. You pay a few bucks and your free. you don't have to take any other responsibility. It's stupid but it's true.
Abortion = paying parking ticket.
09 Oct 07
Originally posted by agrysonhttp://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/embryo
Squelchbelch makes a good point above, but I'll try to make it very clear to you. The only difference between a pig embryo and a human embryo? Basically it's just the genome, which hasn't even been fully expressed yet to provide anything approaching self-awareness in the stages of development we're discussing.
I'm also somewhat confused by your saying...
...[text shortened]... n tell others what to do with their bodies under the guise of compassion for children.
Main Entry:
em·bryo Listen to the pronunciation of embryo
Pronunciation:
\ˈem-brē-ˌō\
Function:
noun
"the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception"
I have looked up "person" repeatedly for you and I'll do it again.
You lose on the fact that you have not been able to prove to me that you can have a human being but not a "person." I have proved that the human embryo is a human individual as well as a person by the definitions.
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/person
Main Entry:
per·son Listen to the pronunciation of person
Pronunciation:
\ˈpər-sən\
Function:
noun
1: human, individual —sometimes used in combination especially by those who prefer to avoid man in compounds applicable to both sexes
4 aarchaic : bodily appearance b: the body of a human being; also : the body and clothing 5: the personality of a human being : self
the keyword to look for is human individual.
I know your disappointed your shell game of words doesn't work.
You say "based on your refusal to accept that there is a difference between a human and something that is human, not on any real information or anything. "
I was not the person that said at conception you have a "human" but not a "person" which if you look at the definitions really doesn't make any sense except for those looking for justification of their killings.
I am saying that at conception you have a unique human being individual life. Science backs me up.