25 Sep 07
Originally posted by PinkFloydI think since your going to be outrageous, I'll speak for him. $25 million in the currency of his choice.
Very well, but since he's not here, I vote that I speak for him. Let's see--for loss of liberty, subjection to torture & physical injuries (yeah--I take kidnap victims at their word on that kind of thing; what's the alternative? To believe Bush's words that "we don't torture"?), mental anguish, and punitive damages for dumping him in Albania, I put the p ...[text shortened]... ion: There are not enough precious metals in Fort Knox to pay the debt owed to el-Masri.
25 Sep 07
1 edit
Originally posted by PinkFloydIn the fight against militant Islamism, which is the major threat to Western civilisation today, there are bound to be unfortunate mistakes of this sort.
So, what do you folks think of this guy? Here he is, a German citizen living in Munich, minding his own, when one day in December 2003, he makes a perfectly legal trip to Macedonia. CIA agents abduct him there, whisk him away to Kabul (in Bush-speak, that's an "extraordinary rendition"😉, where he gets himself tortured. The CIA operatives, in their wisdo are at war with terrorism, these "slip-ups" are forgivable. Bush, I say, is wrong.
In this particular case it seems that although the 'victim' was not the intended target he was sufficiently compromised for both the Macedonian authorities and the CIA to hold him for questioning.
25 Sep 07
Originally posted by Darth SpongeNo...I'm not for torture. Was poking a bit-o-fun at your post. 😏
you neglected to answer my question: why is it okay for the US- or any govt to kidnap people? since you give kidnapping a smiley face, I am guessing you are for it. why so?
I don't think anyone is for torture...that is EXCEPT the islamists who have proven their opinion by proudly airing their videos.
Originally posted by Darth Sponge:
"so as long as no one is tortured, then kidnapping them and holding them without trial or evidence is okay?"
25 Sep 07
Originally posted by PinkFloydSuch is life I guess, its not the first time something like this has happened, and no doubt not the last
So, what do you folks think of this guy? Here he is, a German citizen living in Munich, minding his own, when one day in December 2003, he makes a perfectly legal trip to Macedonia. CIA agents abduct him there, whisk him away to Kabul (in Bush-speak, that's an "extraordinary rendition"😉, where he gets himself tortured. The CIA operatives, in their wisdo ...[text shortened]... are at war with terrorism, these "slip-ups" are forgivable. Bush, I say, is wrong.
The secuirty of a nation always come before the liberties of a person
Its not right, but I guess thats just life... ; )
25 Sep 07
Originally posted by CrowleyI'll show you mine. Then you must show me yours!
What Would The Rednecks Do?
What would the US do if a US citizen, suspected of being a CIA agent, that are against the Islamic 'regime' in a place like Iran, as 'detained' for questioning?
They would turn that heap of sand into a god-damned glass crater, that's what. OOH-RA!
“On May 8, Iran imprisoned scholar Haleh Esfandiari, who also has dual U.S.-Iranian citizenship. Iran claimed Esfandiari admitted under INTERROGATION (torture?) she was trying to establish an unofficial network”
“Iran has also detained two other Iranian-American women, including Parnaz Azima, a correspondent for U.S.-funded Persian language broadcaster Radio Farda. She has been prevented from leaving Iran since January. Esfandiari and Azima were in Iran to visit their mothers. The identity of the other woman has not been revealed at the request of her family.”
“for the fourth time in recent months, Iran has detained someone holding dual U.S. and Iranian citizenship. He’s a consultant affiliated with George Soros to promote democracy and human rights.”
AND WHO CAN FORGET: “Iran hostage crisis, a group of militant university students who took over the U.S. diplomatic mission in Tehran on November 4, 1979. They held 63 U.S. diplomats and three other U.S. citizens hostage until January 20, 1981. A violation of the long-standing principal of international law.”
Now..mouth of the South...show me the "god-damned glass craters".
I will wait impatiently for the post. Hopefully a link with pictures. 😀
OOH_RAH!
25 Sep 07
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Originally posted by CrowleySince you mentioned it, yes, I consider myself a red neck. Work hard for my living and the things I possess. I don't like folks messing with them or with me. And I'm sure you'd be surprised but there are alot of red necks like myself with lots of college education and technical training. Me, I have a year or so of college and five or six Microsoft certs. Doesn't really mean much to me though, just stuff I know for my job.
What I do when I read responses to this type of thing by our American friends on this forum is I think WWTRD?
What Would The Rednecks Do?
What would the US do if a US citizen, suspected of being a CIA agent, doling out guns, ammo and funding for rebel groups that are against the Islamic 'regime' in a place like Iran, was 'detained' for questioning?
They would turn that heap of sand into a god-damned glass crater, that's what. OOH-RA!
However, I'm not an intellectual. I don't sit ina 'Ivory Tower' and dictate the way I think people should live their lives ... like many of the academic university and college elitists do along with their compatriots in the liberal media. Problem with alot of intellectuals is they never had a real job. Thats is they spent all their lives in school and then when they graduated college , they couldn't find anything else to do for a living so they decided to teach at a college level.
There is a song that sums it up pretty well, part of the lyrics go:
Well, you intellectuals may not like it
but there ain't nothing that you can do
Cause thereare alot more of us common folk
then there ever will be of you!
Have a great day! from an American red neck!
25 Sep 07
Originally posted by SMSBear716Isn't that pretty much exactly what you do in most of your posts?
However, I'm not an intellectual. I don't sit ina 'Ivory Tower' and dictate the way I think people should live their lives ...
Not the being an intellectual or sitting in an Ivory Tower, but the dictating how you think people should live.
Even if you want to be technical and defend yourself as not telling others how to live, you certainly spend a lot of time telling others why what they think and feel is worthless crap, which is very similar.
25 Sep 07
Originally posted by mdhallNot really, not if what they think truley is crap. 😀
Isn't that pretty much exactly what you do in most of your posts?
Not the being an intellectual or sitting in an Ivory Tower, but the dictating how you think people should live.
Even if you want to be technical and defend yourself as not telling others how to live, you certainly spend a lot of time telling others why what they think and feel is worthless crap, which is very similar.
25 Sep 07
Originally posted by MacSwainSo what you're saying is that the Americans should be the arbiters of whether this guy is entitled to a German passport or not? Surely this is a matter for Germany, not the CIA?
What type fellow is el-Masri?
First: He based his application for German asylum on his membership in Al-Tawhid which means "movement for monotheism and holy war". We are all familiar with the term “Holy War” and what it means.
Secondly: He obtained citizenship through a “marriage of convienence” quickly followed by divorce. Not an “above-board” method for a good boy who is “just minding his own.”
25 Sep 07
Originally posted by mdhallI don't know where you're coming from. Decapitation of prisoners is wrong. But if the US wants some sort of moral high ground it needs to be bound by rules. If it doesn't act so, it has no basis for moral outrage.
If anyone is expecting shock and outrage at this, I think they missed the news stories where terrorists decapitate prisoners.
It's not a justification issue. Every power nation has a dirty deeds program to carry out this kind of thing, so, whatever.
I think the deeper problem here is why is the CIA still using torture?
In many ways it could be argued ...[text shortened]... t/article/2006/07/11/AR2006071100094.html
So, hopefully this will not happen to him again :\
25 Sep 07
Originally posted by knightwestHe had the same name as a wanted person, the Macedonians suspected the passport was a forgery, they called the CIA who whisked him away.
That's not what he is saying at all.
I suggest you re-read his post.
Subsequently, it was said that his German asylum application and citizenship was mostly spurious.
What part did I miss and surely it's a German matter?
25 Sep 07
Originally posted by SMSBear716Ooh I love the cut and thrust of manly debate. "You're all a bunch of panty-waisted liberal egg-heads who never had a real job in your lives and we outnumber you. Nyah, nyah."
However, I'm not an intellectual. I don't sit ina 'Ivory Tower' and dictate the way I think people should live their lives ... like many of the academic university and college elitists do along with their compatriots in the liberal media. Problem with alot of intellectuals is they never had a real job. Thats is they spent all their lives in school and t ...[text shortened]... mmon folk
then there ever will be of you!
Have a great day! from an American red neck!
The problem with US foreign policy is that it's been run by rednecks. The type who act before they think. A foreign policy I might add that has resulted in more enemies and fewer friends than before it was embarked upon. Also, many times more dead people, broken lives and shattered bodies.
But let's get back to the kidnapping, detention, imprisonment, interrogation and sometimes torture of citizens of other countries. These are the activities of totalitarian regimes. Yes, democracies can and sometimes should adopt extraordinary measures at times of great crisis. Great Britain did at the start of WWII. But Churchill was also very mindful that such extraordinary powers were open to abuse and by the end of 1943 he moved to get them lifted. And these were in times, where the threat to Britain was far, far greater than those posed to the US by a rag tag group of militant radicals.
He wrote at the time: “The power of the Executive to cast a man into prison without formulating any charge known to the law, and particularly to deny him the judgment of his peers, is in the highest degree odious, and is the foundation of all totalitarian government.”
—Winston Churchill, on the 1943 decision to release Nazi sympathizer Sir Oswald Mosley. He wrote cogently and in depth at the time on the whole issue.
He's not the only one who would have a problem with present US foreign policy:
“No person shall…be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law…” —5th Amendment to the U.S. Bill of Rights
But I guess that only applies to US citizens. The rest of the world can go suck dirt.
"Preventive war was an invention of Hitler. Frankly, I would not even listen to anyone seriously that came and talked about such a thing." - Dwight D. Eisenhower 1953
"Allow the president to invade a neighboring nation, whenever he shall deem it necessary to repel an invasion, and you allow him to do so whenever he may choose to say he deems it necessary for such a purpose—and you allow him to make war at pleasure." -Abraham Lincoln
"That we are to stand by the president, right or wrong is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." - Theodore Roosevelt
History's not going to look kindly on Bush Jr. whom we should surely agree is no academic.