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15 Jan 21
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25 Jan 21
@averagejoe1 saidIf only you'd kick that bee out of your bonnet, you'd realise how dishonest you sound.
USA Nordic USA Nordic?
25 Jan 21
@shallow-blue saidBut the question stands alone, does it not...no matter who asks it, even a guy with a bee in his bonnet. Could you give your opinion on this anomaly? About the USA not taking the Nordic concept under consideration?
If only you'd kick that bee out of your bonnet, you'd realise how dishonest you sound.
You seem to say it is about Me? Huh?
26 Jan 21
@averagejoe1 saidA good article in the Atlantic that explains things you can't or won't understand:
But the question stands alone, does it not...no matter who asks it, even a guy with a bee in his bonnet. Could you give your opinion on this anomaly? About the USA not taking the Nordic concept under consideration?
You seem to say it is about Me? Huh?
"A Nordic person myself, I left my native Finland seven years ago and moved to the U.S. Although I’m now a U.S. citizen, I hear these kinds of comments from Americans all the time—at cocktail parties and at panel discussions, in town hall meetings and on the opinion pages. Nordic countries are the way they are, I’m told, because they are small, homogeneous “nanny states” where everyone looks alike, thinks alike, and belongs to a big extended family. This, in turn, makes Nordic citizens willing to sacrifice their own interests to help their neighbors. Americans don’t feel a similar kinship with other Americans, I’m told, and thus will never sacrifice their own interests for the common good. What this is mostly taken to mean is that Americans will never, ever agree to pay higher taxes to provide universal social services, as the Nordics do. Thus Bernie Sanders, and anyone else in the U.S. who brings up Nordic countries as an example for America, is living in la-la land.
But this vision of homogenous, altruistic Nordic lands is mostly a fantasy. The choices Nordic countries have made have little to do with altruism or kinship. Rather, Nordic people have made their decisions out of self-interest. Nordic nations offer their citizens—all of their citizens, but especially the middle class—high-quality services that save people a lot of money, time, and trouble. This is what Americans fail to understand: My taxes in Finland were used to pay for top-notch services for me.
When I lived in Finland, as a middle-class citizen I paid income tax at a rate not much higher than what I now pay in New York City. True, Nordic countries have somewhat higher taxes on consumption than America, and overall they collect more tax revenue than the U.S. currently does—partly from the wealthy. But, as an example, here are some of the things I personally got in return for my taxes: nearly a full year of paid parental leave for each child (plus a smaller monthly payment for an additional two years, were I or the father of my child to choose to stay at home with our child longer), affordable high-quality day care for my kids, one of the world’s best public K-12 education systems, free college, free graduate school, nearly free world-class health care delivered through a pretty decent universal network, and a full year of partially paid disability leave. As far as I was concerned, it was a great deal. And it was equally beneficial for others. From a Nordic perspective, nothing Bernie Sanders is proposing is the least bit crazy—pretty much all Nordic countries have had policies like these in place for years.
But wait, most Americans would say: Those policies work well because all Nordics share a sense of kinship and have fond feelings for each other. That might be nice if it were true, but it’s not, as anyone who has followed recent political debates about immigration or economic policy in Nordic countries understands. Nordics are not only just as selfish as everyone else on this earth but they can—and do—dislike many of their fellow citizens just as much as people with different political views dislike each other in other countries. As for homogeneity, Sweden already has a bigger share of foreign-born residents than the U.S. The reason Nordics stick with the system is because they can see that on the whole, they come out ahead—not just as a group, but as individuals."
There's more at: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-nordic-countries/473385/
26 Jan 21
@shavixmir saidGoddamn, Shav, this is a great post.
Then it is pointless.
You want to know why your politicians and government and businesses are not as social as their European counterparts, you have to understand the historical context.
However, to suit your needs (with sweeping generalisations):
Europeans are volatile and less accepting of government line.
Businesses don’t differ much to US businesses, especiall ...[text shortened]... press when you’re gazing over the field of white crosses at Saint Quentin or standing in St. Peters.
26 Jan 21
@no1marauder saidA GREAT post, I see daylight.
A good article in the Atlantic that explains things you can't or won't understand:
"A Nordic person myself, I left my native Finland seven years ago and moved to the U.S. Although I’m now a U.S. citizen, I hear these kinds of comments from Americans all the time—at cocktail parties and at panel discussions, in town hall meetings and on the opinion pages. Nordic countri ...[text shortened]... ore at: https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/03/bernie-sanders-nordic-countries/473385/
What you ‘get (from nanny govt) in return for your taxes is Free college, many benefits to parents with children, free health care and the govt also gives you disability leave. What do the people with no children get, to equalize them with the parents/people who get all that free stuff.?
It makes more logical sense for a couple to raise their own kid, independently, with their own planning. Have only the kids they can afford. Educate their own kids. The single neighbor next door might be chagrined to see their five children getting raised by his taxes . I never get how you justify that.
“ To sacrifice their own interests to help their neighbors” sounds a bit like Marx , from each according to their ability to each according to their needs. If I want to have 4 kids, I might not be able to, if the govt makes me sacrifice my having the 4th one so I can pay more money in tax to pay for your child to go to college!?? Is this the sacrifice you speak of? Brrrr.. This makes absolutely no sense to me ....it is as if you are saying that everybody in that country is all one big family. If one takes that concept to a logical conclusion, everyone will be equal, just like Kamala said when she said that at the end of the day, everyone will end up in the same place. That is simply not the American way, and that is why Nordic will not work in this country.
One might say this sounds ‘selfish’. It is also self-reliance self-responsibility self-respect, I could go on and on. I just could not chuck all of that out of the window, and have the government be responsible for many facets of my life. I just could not do that. Better To think for oneself, than to have someone dominate your life. Individualism versus collectivism. You will recognize this as the principle concept of Ayn Rand’s fountainhead. Think, why did it sell so many copies?
And the ladies, would they rather marry a man who is self-reliant productive responsible, or a guy that just pours his money to the government to take care of him, thus resulting in a family dependent on government? Brrrr again. That is almost a trick question . Pillow-chewing question.
26 Jan 21
@averagejoe1 said1. Your lobby groups push the concept that it’s not possible, that you have to live the American dream, individualism is good.
A very nice post, i enjoyed reading it.Many of us have been to the places you mention, and more, .and yes, it all gives us pause. Standing in a Vnam rice field does indeed create un-experienced feelings.
But, still, I am simply asking (assuming our government has noticed how great and happy everything is about the Nordic plans) why our extremely smart economists and ...[text shortened]... hat is, why do you think that this is the case,,,,that, the USA plods along with our present system?
2. That the general public, due to lack of comparison or constant historic context, have accepted the message from point 1; hook, line and sinker.
Tell me, how is it possible to discredit socialism as a concept, for example?
When you can’t distinguish between the good and the bad of a political system, but bin it completely as evil, how is that possible?
And when that happens you get absurd situations like poor people opposing labour laws. Or, on the other end of the scale, socialists opposing local shopkeepers because they represent the oppression of the proletariate.
Ultimately, the truth is that all political systems are just that. Systems.
And every system has good points and bad points. Nothing is wholly good or completely evil.
And when one does believe in such rigid doctrines, one should be aware of indoctrination.
26 Jan 21
@shavixmir saidI agree, I think you are saying lobby groups encourage individualism,, which is good. I would think that that is a given anyway, as one is born an individual, and without rules to erode his individuality, he may be lucky enough to remain a free-thinking, free living individual.
1. Your lobby groups push the concept that it’s not possible, that you have to live the American dream, individualism is good.
2. That the general public, due to lack of comparison or constant historic context, have accepted the message from point 1; hook, line and sinker.
Tell me, how is it possible to discredit socialism as a concept, for example?
When you can’t di ...[text shortened]... y evil.
And when one does believe in such rigid doctrines, one should be aware of indoctrination.
2. How could one not accept individualism? Dont get you there.
3. Why cant one distinguish good from bad political systems? Me, I would say that any system that is closer to Communism than another would qualify as bad. So, I think Socialism is closer to the concept of Communism than capitalism is.
4. I agree that poor people have every right (freedom) to oppose labour laws. And that socialists, or presbyterians or menanites or anyone may oppose local shopkeepers as well. That is a democracy. So, I dont get your point here.
5. Indoctrination? Yes, that can happen to people who are not independent thinkers. You are being confusing with this post, it is a given that certain doctrines thrust upon the populace could make it easy to indoctrinate them.
26 Jan 21
@averagejoe1 saidYou are proving my point. Thanks.
I agree, I think you are saying lobby groups encourage individualism,, which is good. I would think that that is a given anyway, as one is born an individual, and without rules to erode his individuality, he may be lucky enough to remain a free-thinking, free living individual.
2. How could one not accept individualism? Dont get you there.
3. Why cant one disti ...[text shortened]... is a given that certain doctrines thrust upon the populace could make it easy to indoctrinate them.
26 Jan 21
@shavixmir saidI appreciate your giving me a bit of credence.....but..,just wait on the Biden Express. THAT is what will actually prove your point. Joe will prove it all.
You are proving my point. Thanks.
26 Jan 21
@AverageJoe1
I saw Suzianne bouncing along the road in her Chevy Nova, in NMexico, riding right past 50,000 workers who will lose their jobs when the full impact hits the oil industry. Had refined oil (gas) in her gas tank. Y'all do keep us confused, I will give you that!
You fellers should google the many times Biden and the VP said they 'guarantee' they would not stop fracking. Is that a lie? I'll run it by Suzianne, the go-to for the deeming of lies.
🤔 🤔 🤔 🤔
26 Jan 21
@AverageJoe1
Biden is ALREADY improving greatly on Trumpian policy,
getting us back in WHO, and the Paris accords for one, using emergency powers to increase and dole out evenly to states the vaccine instead of the Trump vision, States are on their own, 'we are not the sales clerks of the US' is what he said.
Throwing the states under the bus like that foments competition for valuable resources and doesn't make for ANY kind of national leadership, in fact ANTI leadership,
and I for one cannot understand why 70 million think Trump is the best POTUS ever.
History is already writing the final chapters on Trump and it is clear he is THE worse POTUS in US history.
But 70 million hypnotized people think otherwise and need professional deprogramming to rejoin the American system.
27 Jan 21
1 edit
@sonhouse saidHere is vintage Sounhouse. I make a comment about Biden firing thousands of workers(yes, he is firing them). In the oil industry.
@AverageJoe1
Biden is ALREADY improving greatly on Trumpian policy,
getting us back in WHO, and the Paris accords for one, using emergency powers to increase and dole out evenly to states the vaccine instead of the Trump vision, States are on their own, 'we are not the sales clerks of the US' is what he said.
Throwing the states under the bus like that foments competition ...[text shortened]... hypnotized people think otherwise and need professional deprogramming to rejoin the American system.
Sonhouse answers by writing about other stuff Biden is doing. HAHA Yeah, his ruining lives while he sips champagne in the WH...it does not seem to trouble y'all. Does it trouble you, paragraph one of this thread, that states and people in the minority will have no voice if Electoral College and Filibuster are done away with? I thought minorities are a big deal, your minions. What say you, Sohouse?