I had an epiphany the other night while trying to fall asleep.
First, some background. For almost 2 months now, I've been fighting a mild but annoying upper respiratory infection. It's nothing too severe and it comes and goes, but I've been bothered by some post-nasal drip here, a little bronchitis there, etc. I haven't missed much work time and basically I'm okay, but it's been annoying; it's also interfered with my ability to sleep. I've been trying every OTC remedy and some work better than others. I'm now on a round of avelox and a nasal steroid (omnaris), so hopefully this will get rid of it once and for all. But, I haven't been at 100% in a while.
More background. About 3 months ago, my wife gave birth to our third child. Thankfully, we're all healthy, but my wife has a very tough time with pregnancies. She basically feels miserable for 9 months. We were in the hospital 5 times (though never over night) during the pregnancy for minor emergencies. But, thankfully, everything worked out.
Okay; so I'm lying in bed at 2:30 AM the other night, unable to sleep because of my hacking cough, wondering whether I should take a Benadryl even though I already took a Nyquill at midnight. And, what do you think about when you're feeling miserable from sleep deprivation and a lingering upper respiratory infection? You think of all sorts of things, most of them unpleasant.
Suddenly a thought popped into my mind: What if my wife becomes pregnant soon? Look at the shape I'm in right now! Could I shoulder the extra responsibility with the kids around the house? Would my wife be able to handle another pregnancy on the heels of the last one? Now, mind you, that scenario is unlikely for various reasons that we need not get into, but what if?
Now, I would never consider aborting a child and even if I would, my wife would never do it.
But...
I'm a 33 year old basically healthy professional with a solid job, a mature, caring, healthy wife who's a wonderful mother, a tremendous extended family network of support, a comfortable house in the suburbs, etc., etc.
and yet, the thought of whether I'd be able to handle another child right now not only crossed my mind, but weighed on my mind.
What if I were a 17 year old scared girl who did something stupid and got knocked up? Do I think that politicians should be able to make the decision for me as to whether I should be forced to carry a baby to term that I don't feel emotionally, mentally and physically equipped to support?
Since that thought crossed my mind, I have tried a few times to make the anti-abortion case in my mind. I can't do it. It's too weak.
Now, mind you, I never rabidly pro-life anyway and I can still support things like 24 hour waiting ("cooling off" ) periods, informed consent requirements and I can still support outlawing abortion post-viability (20 weeks should be plenty of time to make the decision). But I have a tough time making the case that states should be allowed to simply outlaw abortions.
Originally posted by sh76Ok spanky, so when is the magical time when abortions should be allowed? Is it 4 months, is it 8 months, is it partial birth, or can we simply put a pillow over their head when they come out of the womb....just so you can get some sleep at night?
I had an epiphany the other night while trying to fall asleep.
First, some background. For almost 2 months now, I've been fighting a mild but annoying upper respiratory infection. It's nothing too severe and it comes and goes, but I've been bothered by some post-nasal drip here, a little bronchitis there, etc. I haven't missed much work time and basically I' making the case that states should be allowed to simply outlaw abortions.
As for the 17 year old girl, perhaps she will learn a hard valuable lesson that will not lead her to keep getting pregnant. Of course, all that she needs to do now is pop a pill and "presoto" no more problem.
Edit: Just out of curiosity, what does our religion teach regarding abortion? Are you not Jewish?
Originally posted by whodeySo long as it's still in the womb, it's the woman's choice.
Ok spanky, so when is the magical time when abortions should be allowed? Is it 4 months, is it 8 months, is it partial birth, or can we simply put a pillow over their head when they come out of the womb....just so you can get some sleep at night?
Originally posted by shavixmirYes but when immediately born the infant is still attached via the placenta. Therefore, I think it perfectly reasonable to be able to snuff them out before the woman passes the placenta. In fact, I'm pretty sure that is why God designed it to happen in this way. It is one last chance to kill them before they wreck our lives.
So long as it's still in the womb, it's the woman's choice.
Originally posted by sh76Are states allowed to simply outlaw murder ? ... or are you having a tough time making that case as well ?
I had an epiphany the other night while trying to fall asleep.
First, some background. For almost 2 months now, I've been fighting a mild but annoying upper respiratory infection. It's nothing too severe and it comes and goes, but I've been bothered by some post-nasal drip here, a little bronchitis there, etc. I haven't missed much work time and basically I' ...[text shortened]... making the case that states should be allowed to simply outlaw abortions.
Originally posted by whodey===Ok spanky, so when is the magical time when abortions should be allowed? Is it 4 months, is it 8 months, is it partial birth, or can we simply put a pillow over their head when they come out of the womb....just so you can get some sleep at night?===
Ok spanky, so when is the magical time when abortions should be allowed? Is it 4 months, is it 8 months, is it partial birth, or can we simply put a pillow over their head when they come out of the womb....just so you can get some sleep at night?
As for the 17 year old girl, perhaps she will learn a hard valuable lesson that will not lead her to keep ge Just out of curiosity, what does our religion teach regarding abortion? Are you not Jewish?
Viability seems like as good a dividing point as any.
===As for the 17 year old girl, perhaps she will learn a hard valuable lesson that will not lead her to keep getting pregnant. Of course, all that she needs to do now is pop a pill and "presoto" no more problem.===
Well, yes, she'd definitely learn a lesson. But, how much damage are we willing to cause to her in order to teach her this lesson. If we put her in jail or tortured her, I'm sure she'd learn her lesson also.
====Edit: Just out of curiosity, what does our religion teach regarding abortion? Are you not Jewish?====
Yes; and my religion doesn't allow abortions except to save the life of the mother. But, at most, that's binding on me (if I choose to make it so). That's not binding on anyone else. I also don't think that should be at all relevant to government policy.
Originally posted by SleepyguyI could just say because my religion says so; but that's a cop out.
Why?
Why, indeed?
Because I could never live with myself afterwards for having denied my potential progeny a lifetime.
Because my personal sense of morality would not allow me to do so.
But, my personal sense of morality is not binding on everyone else. Other people, with differing senses or morality and different life circumstances are not bound by what I think and I have no desire to impose my personal sense of morality on other people who face difficult situations in their own lives than I can hardly even relate to, let alone fully understand.
Originally posted by sh76Well I've done this topic here too many times, so I'm not going to pursue it past this post. It all boils down to whether you think an unborn child is a human being or not. If not, then I think it's reasonable to expect you to be able to explain where in the course of that child's development it becomes a human being, and require you to abort it before that point. Personally I think that's an impossible line to draw. Obviously many disagree. It's a fruitless and frustrating discussion.
I could just say because my religion says so; but that's a cop out.
Why, indeed?
Because I could never live with myself afterwards for having denied my potential progeny a lifetime.
Because my personal sense of morality would not allow me to do so.
But, my personal sense of morality is not binding on everyone else. Other people, with differing sense ...[text shortened]... ult situations in their own lives than I can hardly even relate to, let alone fully understand.
If you're like Shav that line is birth. Anytime before that you can carve away.
If you're like most people you want it done early on in the development process. You know, before you know the kid is reacting to stimuli, feels pain, sucks it's thumb, smiles and so on. Much harder to kill them after that for some reason.
If you're like me you wonder why it's OK to kill a developing human life at any point in the process. Since we know the kid will still be developing clear into the teen years, and we can't kill it at thirteen, how do we justify killing it earlier in the process? Where is that magic line? Is it OK to kill it when it's just a non-sentient clump of cells? Most seem to think yes. But why? Is the clump of cells not human? What else could it be but human? Is it any less alive at that point? It's growing and developing. Isn't that life?
Isn't that an innocent human life? Give it some time and you'll be cheering it on at little league.
Anyway, most here don't agree with that view and I really don't want to go down this road again. But do me a favor. If your wife does get pregnant and you start wondering about whether you can shoulder the burden, send me PM. I'm sure I could find somebody to adopt your kid in less than an hour.
Originally posted by sh76Another element is your wife's difficulty with pregnancies - where she's miserable for 9 months. When a mother chooses to give birth, she's also choosing to endure the pregnancy that goes along with it - and as your wife's experience has shown, this can include a number of emergency visits to the hospital. Not exactly a picnic. The pro-life movement needs to do a better job addressing this particular issue.
I had an epiphany the other night while trying to fall asleep.
First, some background. For almost 2 months now, I've been fighting a mild but annoying upper respiratory infection. It's nothing too severe and it comes and goes, but I've been bothered by some post-nasal drip here, a little bronchitis there, etc. I haven't missed much work time and basically I' ...[text shortened]... making the case that states should be allowed to simply outlaw abortions.
Originally posted by sh76So you are comparing having a child to torture? Show me a mother who wishes she had never given birth and I will show you an unfit parent and borderline sociopath. Most do NOT regret their decision, but many do such as the woman who won the Roe vs. Wade decision.
Well, yes, she'd definitely learn a lesson. But, how much damage are we willing to cause to her in order to teach her this lesson. If we put her in jail or tortured her, I'm sure she'd learn her lesson also.
Although the feelings of the parents are important, the issue is whether they have the right to snuff out a life. Of course, many say that the key is viability, but the infant is still dependent on the mother outside the womb. It just seems arbitrary and bizzare to me to pick viability as the excuse to snuff out its life. I suppose it is because we have no recolection of that time, so what they hey, they must not suffer so why not kill it?
Originally posted by sh76The reason I ask is that we obtain our morality from authority figures. Therefore, I would assume if you are willing to sacrifice the teachings of your religious leaders, you then must give more weight to the morality of the state. I am glad that that is not the case, however. Having said that, the issue is then whether or not you think society should adopt your moral position. Of course, if you think that the unborn is a human being, then the answer is yes. If not, then you can simply treat it as a parasitical wart I suppose.
Yes; and my religion doesn't allow abortions except to save the life of the mother. But, at most, that's binding on me (if I choose to make it so). That's not binding on anyone else. I also don't think that should be at all relevant to government policy.[/b]