I have not jumped into this conversation thus far because
1. I have not seen the film so I cannot speak to it except to say that perhaps the character being discussed fits the definition of the second term from the DSM IV, the standard diagnostic tool in the US
2. I am up to my a** in alligators doing actual back to back mental health crisis work, such that participating at length in this discussion would distract my focus...Christmas is not an easy time for those who suffer and those who support.
At any rate, professional definitions might be helpful here. Both are cited from the DSM IV, although quickly located on different websites:
Psychotic Disorder Not Otherwise Specified
This category includes psychotic symptomatology (i.e., delusions, hallucinations, disorganized speech, grossly disorganized or catatonic behavior) about which there is inadequate information to make a specific diagnosis or about which there is contradictory information, or disorders with psychotic symptoms that do not meet the criteria for any specific psychotic disorder.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK519704/table/ch3.t20/
The following is the closest a professional diagnosing professional can come to the common label “sociopath” (please note that there is no diagnostic term “sociopath&rdquo😉
Diagnostic criteria for 301.7 Antisocial Personality Disorder
A. There is a pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (or more) of the following:
(1) failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest
(2) deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure
(3) impulsivity or failure to plan ahead
(4) irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults
(5) reckless disregard for safety of self or others
(6) consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations
(7) lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another
https://behavenet.com/diagnostic-criteria-3017-antisocial-personality-disorder
@hakima saidHere's an interesting article:
I have not seen the film so I cannot speak to it except to say that perhaps the character being discussed fits the definition of the second term from the DSM IV, the standard diagnostic tool in the US
"Like many others, I recently went to watch Joker aware of the controversy surrounding the film: is it an irresponsible portrayal of mental illness likely to incite copycat violence, or a cinematic masterpiece and powerful political statement?
Being a psychiatrist, I abhor negative depictions of the mentally ill but as an ardent Batman fan I was hopeful. As it happens, I was blown away. Joaquin Phoenix’s towering performance and Todd Phillips’ masterful direction undoubtedly helped, but mostly it was the way it approached mental illness."
And
"The Joker (or Arthur) appears to have a complex mix of diagnoses, including pseudobulbar affect – a rare condition consisting of uncontrollable laugher or crying, and possibly a psychotic illness, evidenced by his apparent hallucinations about the subject of his affections (played by Zazie Beetz). In addition, he displays features of certain personality traits that are not technically considered to be mental illnesses – psychopathy (he feels no empathy for the victims of his violence) and narcissism (which makes him crave attention and adulation by any means necessary)."
The rest is found here: [Sydney Morning Herald]
https://tinyurl.com/y8nl7y4o
As a psychiatrist, I was blown away by the latest Joker
@hakima
I would assume that you know that antisocial personality disorder is not a form of psychosis.
It is the confusion between features of antisocial personality disorder and psychosis that is the problem.
People with psychosis suffer a stigma because psychosis is commonly misused to mean violence. You will note that despite BOTT's good intentions he refers to the Joker's "psychotic behaviour". You will also frequently hear "he's psychotic" used as a euphemism for "he's violent". It is maintained in people's day to day language largely by misinformed dramas.
People with a psychosis diagnosis are often reluctant to disclose it because of the level of misunderstanding that surrounds it. It is a real issue for real people. It will be a real issue for your clients.
The problem is perpetuated (if not created) by movies that misuse the term psychotic to add gravitas.
Fascinating that you refer to your involvement in mental health assessments to lend weight to your post. I am accused of preoccupation with my profession and virtue signalling before I have even mentioned in this thread that I am a retired consultant psychiatrist with over 30 years of clinical experience. I was in fact initially writing from the perspective of a relative of people affected by this stigma.
@fmf saidThis is not an accurate quote from an eminent professor of psychiatry but he said words to the effect of 'Sadly, somewhere on the fringes of our profession there is a doctor waiting to be found with whatever it is the person seeks to hear'.
Here's an interesting article:
"Like many others, I recently went to watch Joker aware of the controversy surrounding the film: is it an irresponsible portrayal of mental illness likely to incite copycat violence, or a cinematic masterpiece and powerful political statement?
Being a psychiatrist, I abhor negative depictions of the mentally ill but as an ardent Batman fan I w ...[text shortened]... d]
https://tinyurl.com/y8nl7y4o
As a psychiatrist, I was blown away by the latest Joker
I have real experience of people being stigmatised as a result of misunderstanding of a psychosis diagnosis and misinformation about risk of violence. This is not a strawman for a petty squabble. This is a real issue for real people.
@relentless-red saidWhatever it was exactly that you used to do, did it outrank being a psychiatrist? Are you "eminent"?
This is not an accurate quote from an eminent professor of psychiatry but he said words to the effect of 'Sadly, somewhere on the fringes of our profession there is a doctor waiting to be found with whatever it is the person seeks to hear'.
I have real experience of people being stigmatised as a result of misunderstanding of a psychosis diagnosis and misinformation ...[text shortened]... risk of violence. This is not a strawman for a petty squabble. This is a real issue for real people.
@relentless-red saidOf course I know that antisocial personality disorder is not a form of psychosis. That was my whole point of posting. To bring to light the difference and educate, thereby helping to dispel the stigma. If anything, my point is to bring to light that the diagnosis does not indicate a tendency to violence. Sorry you missed it. See how misunderstanding leads to stigmatizing?
@hakima
I would assume that you know that antisocial personality disorder is not a form of psychosis.
It is the confusion between features of antisocial personality disorder and psychosis that is the problem.
People with psychosis suffer a stigma because psychosis is commonly misused to mean violence. You will note that despite BOTT's good intentions he refers ...[text shortened]... was in fact initially writing from the perspective of a relative of people affected by this stigma.
Fascinating that you assume that my mentioning involvement in the mental health field was for the purpose of lending weight to my post. It wasn’t. I didn’t need it to as I cited the actual diagnostic definitions from the DSM IV which actually does lend my posting weight. I’m not here to argue, take sides or even care about who agrees or disagrees with the diagnostic citations. I would assume that someone who has 30 years experience diagnosing mental health conditions would appreciate the definitions from the source actually used (in the US...I am fully aware that the UK uses a separate diagnostic tool but that it is very similar).
My motivation in mentioning posting was to state the reason why I haven’t entered into the conversation over the armchair diagnosis of a fantasy film character—I have too much else to do in actual fieldwork. If you know me and had been able to shake the chip off your shoulder, you would have understood that. It really doesn’t matter.
@hakima
This is a strawman.
My issue is the misuse of the term psychosis to make violent characters in movies sound more exciting. It perpetuates the confusion regarding the psychosis diagnosis and the stigma that makes people scared to disclose it.
Do you believe there is a stigma for people and their families resulting from a misunderstanding of the term psychosis?
Do you believe movies like Joker perpetuate that misunderstanding?
@relentless-red saidMy point in posting was to illustrate that psychosis does not equal violence. I do not understand why you thought my intention was otherwise.
@hakima
This is a strawman.
My issue is the misuse of the term psychosis to make violent characters in movies sound more exciting. It perpetuates the confusion regarding the psychosis diagnosis and the stigma that makes people scared to disclose it.
Do you believe there is a stigma for people and their families resulting from a misunderstanding of the term psychosis?
Do you believe movies like Joker perpetuate that misunderstanding?
Of course I believe there is a stigma. I deal with that on a daily basis and it is why engagement is so hard.
As to the film, I do not think bears the blame for stigma...fear and lack of knowledge do that...I think that there is a greater root cause in individuals and society in general. Mostly that people don’t take the time to use critical thinking and are served in some fashion by the fears that feed stigma...Media only reflect that root cause.
@relentless-red saidHow long were you actually a fully qualified psychiatrist?
@hakima
I am accused of preoccupation with my profession and virtue signalling before I have even mentioned in this thread that I am a retired consultant psychiatrist with over 30 years of clinical experience.
Also (as I asked you previously but ignored) how come you say you “loved Cuckoo Nest” but weren’t aware of what the professional clinical body thought of this movie? Which wasn’t “love” by any means according to what I’ve read.
@cheesemaster saidShut up cheesebreath; this is an interesting argument about an interesting topic.
It's just a movie 😒
You people are ruining it! 😡