25 Sep 11
1 edit
Originally posted by tomtom232. . .Qb6 is the best move I think, white cannot be prevented from castling, ...Qb6 just makes it more difficult. When black starts to mess around before he has castled himself, it always a good sign i think. Although i am no expert i do think that ...a6 ...b5 is a way of trying to create counter play against the bind, also i have a very surprising line against the ...a5 ....a4 advance which is good for white. If you are dragon players you should be thinking of ..d6 ..g6 ..Bg7 and knights on e5
Then I'd move my queen to e5 or h5 via a5 maybe or exchange knights and go for a b5 advance or fianchetto my bishop... I have a lot of options in this line and your king is stuck in the middle because castling on either side is dangerous.
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThat last bit is exactly what I was thinking of but I already have my pawn on d6. I don't know... Qb6 is pointless if anything I want to reserve this move for after white has castled kingside. I like ...Qa5+ for two reasons
. . .Qb6 is the best move I think, white cannot be prevented from castling, ...Qb6 just makes it more difficult. When black starts to mess around before he has castled himself, it always a good sign i think. Although i am no expert i do think that ...a6 ...b5 is a way of trying to create counter play against the bind, also i have a very surprising ...[text shortened]... or white. If you are dragon players you should be thinking of ..d6 ..g6 ..Bg7 and knights on e5
1)it doesn't lose a tempo from Bd2 as the bishop will have to move later since d2 is not where this bishop wants to be.
2)I can transfer my queen over and create more weaknesses on the kingside with a later check on h4 possibly or some other maneuver.
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by tomtom232where is Nimzo and Leggy, if you see them, send them to the principles office, in the meantime, you get a tardy slip|! 😛
That last bit is exactly what I was thinking of but I already have my pawn on d6. I don't know... Qb6 is pointless if anything I want to reserve this move for [b]after white has castled kingside. I like ...Qa5+ for two reasons
1)it doesn't lose a tempo from Bd2 as the bishop will have to move later since d2 is not where this bishop wants to be.
...[text shortened]... eate more weaknesses on the kingside with a later check on h4 possibly or some other maneuver.[/b]
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieFirst you need to decide on your variation. Is it 2... d6 or 2.. Nc6.
where is Nimzo and Leggy, if you see them, send them to the principles office, in the meantime, you get a tardy slip|! 😛
In your first example it was 2... Nc6 and I am positive that the 5. f3 is an absolute dud move.
In the second example where Black plays 2.. d6 it is all theory.
and I would prefer Black.
25 Sep 11
5 edits
Originally posted by nimzo5first of all, i have no problem with the ..d6 variations, white is good to go, f3 plays
First you need to decide on your variation. Is it 2... d6 or 2.. Nc6.
In your first example it was 2... Nc6 and I am positive that the 5. f3 is an absolute dud move.
In the second example where Black plays 2.. d6 it is all theory.
[pgn] 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 Be6 7. c4 a5 *[/pgn]
and I would prefer Black.
itself naturally, my point is that it doesn't work so well with the 2...Nc6 variations.
Now this is very interesting, historically, because as Leggy states, play was switched
from the 2...Nc6 variations to the 2...d6 for the very reason of counteracting the
bind, when in fact, 2....Nc6 in my opinion is the best way to play for black, the very
same thing that you yourself are now saying, although you dont say why. I myself
gave the idea of ...Qb6 which puts pressure, uncomfortable pressure on whites
position, making natural development, not impossible but difficult after f3 and c4 in
the 2...Nc6 variation.
If we can discuss why, in the 2...Nc6 variations, why you consider f3 to be a dud
move, then we shall do well. I am happy with the ...d6 variations that white is good
to go, ...a5 is a common plan, but white has resources, we can discuss this after the
2...Nc6 variation and why players switched. If we could have concrete analysis, this
would be helpful.
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI checked my database I have had the position prior to 5. f3 109x and not once has a single opponent tried 5.f3. I also have .ctg book of the top 1% of FICS games and in 15,000ish of those f3 has been attempted a whopping 27 times. In standard otb I have 121,000 games from the position prior and only 337 games with f3.
first of all, i have no problem with the ..d6 variations, white is good to go, f3 plays
itself naturally, my point is that it doesn't work so well with the 2...Nc6 variations.
Now this is very interesting, historically, because as Leggy states, play was switched
from the 2...Nc6 variations to the 2...d6 for the very reason of counteracting th ...[text shortened]... riation and why players switched. If we could have concrete analysis, this
would be helpful.
So if nothing else we can conclude that this idea is unpopular.
Next I would suggest Robbie that your approach to the position is a touch too myopic. While your argument sounds logical, for each move, opening play touches on a wider range of factors than the immediate placement of a single move.
here is an example of the 2.. Nc6 line from a CC Olympiad prelim.
Notice that the forcing play really hasn't gotten White anything. Black has the Bishop pair in an open position. Here Black chose e5?! and went on to draw in an opposite color Bishop ending.
an example of OTB play is rarer I like how Jan Werle transposed this back into more familiar territory as a youngster.
lastly an example where Black in otb conditions plays too conservatively and misses a win.
Probably fearful of allowing the Knight onto c7 but from the comfort of the armchair it is clear that Black can collect the advantage by capturing the Bishop.
25 Sep 11
5 edits
Originally posted by nimzo5Notice that the forcing play really hasn't gotten White anything,
I checked my database I have had the position prior to 5. f3 109x and not once has a single opponent tried 5.f3. I also have .ctg book of the top 1% of FICS games and in 15,000ish of those f3 has been attempted a whopping 27 times. In standard otb I have 121,000 games from the position prior and only 337 games with f3.
So if nothing else we can conclude th shop.
umm you did notice a three to one pawn majority on the queenside for white and an
isolated and weak b pawn, that aside, there is no more theory here, all of the Sicilian
players specialist theory counts for naught, and that is the real point of playing f3. That
its not popular is neither here not there, in fact, i would say its an inducement to play it,
for which opponent is going to prepare for it. It has the element of pure surprise.
Never the less, it is clear from these examples that if black has to get anything other
than a crappy position, he must play clearly and decisively in the centre in the 2...Nc6
variations. The question therefore remains, why did players switch from 2...Nc6 to
2...d6, if 2...Nc6 seems to be good for black.
I thank you for these researches Nimzo, i will investigate the ...d5 lines.
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe simplest answer for the switch is that the typical Dragon player dreams of the attack, and the Maroczy Bind turns the game into a much more strategic, positional affair.
Notice that the forcing play really hasn't gotten White anything,
umm you did notice a three to one pawn majority on the queenside for white and an
isolated and weak b pawn, that aside, there is no more theory here, all of the Sicilian
players specialist theory counts for naught, and that is the real point of playing f3. That
its not popu ...[text shortened]... good for black.
I thank you for these researches Nimzo, i will investigate the ...d5 lines.
Most Dragon players would prefer to avoid the Bind, and 2. ... d6 with the idea of a faster ...Nf6 encourages White to play Nc3 instead of c4, as 5. f3 is considered too committal my many.
I admit to being a little confused, as on the one hand it seems as though you think 5. f3 is a good move, but on the other hand my impression is that you think ...Qb6 refutes it.
Sometimes moves are rare because they are simply out of style, and sometimes they are rare because they are bad. Figuring out which is which is part of why we play the game.
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by Paul LeggettHi Leggy, I dont think ...Qb6 refutes it, i am just trying to be objective, no confusion
The simplest answer for the switch is that the typical Dragon player dreams of the attack, and the Maroczy Bind turns the game into a much more strategic, positional affair.
Most Dragon players would prefer to avoid the Bind, and 2. ... d6 with the idea of a faster ...Nf6 encourages White to play Nc3 instead of c4, as 5. f3 is considered too commit ...[text shortened]... hey are rare because they are bad. Figuring out which is which is part of why we play the game.
should exist.
Yes the whole point of f3 is that it turns the game strategic, against ...d6, ..e6, ...g6, I
think it works well, against 2...Nc6 I have my reservations and may need to employ
another strategic opening for 2...Nc6 variations, perhaps the Bb5 Sicilian. Until i
investigate these ...d5 lines of Nimzo and see if white actually gets anything (by that i
mean a strategic target, isoloni, etc etc) it may mean giving up f3 in the . . .Nc6 lines,
which seems at present to be quite ironic considering black gave it up for the very
reason that i want to take it up, that being it turns the game strategic, rather than
tactical. Is there no justice!
25 Sep 11
3 edits
I cannot believe i have been so stupid, Leggy gave the answer way back at the
beginning, the point of 2...Nc6 is that the e pawn is not immediately attacked, we can
play c4 easily, getting a kind of I dunno, English, anyway, is our plan not simple, playing
for the d4 advance? is it not the case? talk to me Nimzo, Tommo, Leggy, tell me truly,
is this not the real reason play was switched from 2...Nc6 to 2...d6, white can play c4
with impunity? Oh what a glorious day!
25 Sep 11
here's my somewhat subjective 2c. 🙂
the early f3, to me at least, is instinctively off the table because it's obviously passive. it's not doing anything but stalling. you don't stall when you're white, you charge. you have the iniative, and losing it is already going backwards. - the ONLY way such moves are worth anything, early in the opening, is when they're preparing an attack. maroczy is certainly no attack. it's more about boring black to resignation. (but then again, I can see how that might work phychologically against trigger-happy dragon attackers.)
I can't really recall maroczy setups ever giving me trouble, even though I just wing it as black. it has very little teeth. - sure you can lose to it like anything else, but it's nothing like the standard run of the mill mainline sicilian white attacks, where you need to ALWAYS be extremely sharp or you're done. maroczy bind is more like bringing a wooden spoon into a gunfight. 🙂
with f3 you're just losing a tempo. even in 2.d6 dragon mainlines white would LOVE to do without it, but he simply can't.
that's why the thematic d5 & e5 breaks work so beautifully the second white starts to fiddle with his pieces. there's simply no time.
so there. wooden spoon, dude, wooden spoon. 🙂
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by wormwoodwooden spoon?, are we talking about the Scottish rugby team 😛
here's my somewhat subjective 2c. 🙂
the early f3, to me at least, is instinctively off the table because it's obviously passive. it's not doing anything but stalling. you don't stall when you're white, you charge. you have the iniative, and losing it is already going backwards. - the ONLY way such moves are worth anything, early in the opening, is whe ...[text shortened]... ieces. there's simply no time.
so there. wooden spoon, dude, wooden spoon. 🙂
BTW wormy, your thoughts are really appreciated, so ok, the dragon trades a
somewhat inferior pawn structure (hopelessly weak d5 square and potentially
backwards e pawn), for piece play. I am playing a dragon as white against
Sevellie, its ultra sharp, not just for me, but for black as well, so here is the thing,
do old guys like me (42) really want to get into a tactical battle with someone
bristling with tactical ideas and full of the latest theory? no , we have come to the
conclusion that the best way is to deal with the positions which arise, strategically.
Now this may seem boring, and maybe it is, but it can also be effective, i have lost
countless games trying to win in completely balanced positions. f3 against Najdorf
and 2,..d6 dragons has something going for it,
its easy
there is no theory
it is strategically sound
it is psychologically sound
its for old guys like me
it can be a surprise weapon
no one plays it
arguments against
its slightly passive
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by nimzo5This is what I would want and not want to play... I thought it was best but its just one of those positions I know I wouldn't be good at so I went for a d5 push instead with other options after robbie's c4.
First you need to decide on your variation. Is it 2... d6 or 2.. Nc6.
In your first example it was 2... Nc6 and I am positive that the 5. f3 is an absolute dud move.
In the second example where Black plays 2.. d6 it is all theory.
[pgn] 1. e4 c5 2. Nf3 d6 3. d4 cxd4 4. Nxd4 Nf6 5. f3 e5 6. Nb3 Be6 7. c4 a5 *[/pgn]
and I would prefer Black.
25 Sep 11
Originally posted by robbie carrobiewut wuuut?? black has WINNING pawn structure in dragon! it's WHITE who's compromising his structure to get an attack! white has nothing without it, and usually black WINS the pawn endings should both black & white piece attacks run out of steam. precisely because white pawns are shot to hell come endgame.
the dragon trades a
somewhat inferior pawn structure (hopelessly weak d5 square and potentially
backwards e pawn), for piece play.
in some lines black's playing a rook down and still fine because of the massive pawn front.
didn't we have this discussion a year back or so already? 🙂
(but yeah, I understand why you like f3 and maroczy. almost any opening is fine if only it doesn't lose right away. even most 'refuted ones' will do fine if only you're not playing a top GM.)
26 Sep 11
2 edits
Originally posted by wormwood
wut wuuut?? black has WINNING pawn structure in dragon! it's WHITE who's compromising his structure to get an attack! white has nothing without it, and usually black WINS the pawn endings should both black & white piece attacks run out of steam. precisely because white pawns are shot to hell come endgame.
in some lines black's playing a rook down and sti right away. even most 'refuted ones' will do fine if only you're not playing a top GM.)
black has WINNING pawn structure in dragon????
muhaha, top notch entertainment! Wormdude, top notch!