8 Nb1
Game 632841
I think you got a pawn no matter how I reply. e4 is loose, but its only attacker is pinned. Both sides will castle K-side soon. Black has yet to finish development. The e-file is likely to open up soon.
The Silman space count is: white=11, black=8
Nb1: Retreats, but allows me to preserve my pawn structure. (a) ...dxc3, Nxc3 looks fine (b) ...d3 loses the pawn (c) any other move allows me to recapture the pawn
cxd4: allows immediate Nxc4, and likely leads to a more open center
Originally posted by OsseThanks for the info, Osse-- though of course it mainly applies to more rarified levels of chess than many of us are likely to encounter.
Hope I am not messing the thread up by replying to an earlier post, but wanted to mention that 6.Nxf7, the Fried Liver, is a blunder that allows Black something like equality. Instead 6.d4! (the Lolli) is close to winning by force according to theory.
Originally posted by OsseWhat else can you do?
Hope I am not messing the thread up by replying to an earlier post...
I asked a moderator if there is any way to edit a previous post (after the 1 hour edit period expires) and was told that it cannot be done, even by a moderator. I assume this also means there is no way to move your post where you want it.
Maybe new features to support this type of game thread can be added in the future.
8. ... dxc3
Since I want to keep my pawn advantage, I have to play dxc3. After you recapture my pawn, I will try to drive back your bisshop with h6, followed by g5, followed by Nxe4. Because of those pawn moves I'll probably choose to castle later on on queen's side.
9 Nxc3
Game 632841
Nxc3: an obviously good move. Removes the pawn threat and redevelops the knight. I am looking for a way to exploit the a2-g8 diagonal.
Qb3 allows me to take on f7, but this is easily defended against. As you have not castled yet, I am also looking for a way to prevent this.
A possible plan is Bb5 pinning Black's knight, e5 ...dxe5, Qxd8...KxQd8. But this cannot be done before the c3-pawn is recaptured.
9. ... 0-0
The point of driving back your bisshop on g5 in order to capture the pawn on e4 is now no longer an option since the pawn is defended now. I could bring out my last bisshop but since I don't see any possible useful attacks, I'll keep this for later. (playing Be6 attacking your bisshop can easily be defended). Instead I'll move my king to safety by a kingside castle. Soon the e-file might open up as well, and my rook would then be ideally positioned after Re8.
10 Nd5
Game 632841
Loose pieces: Black: a1-R, White: c4-B, b2, g2, h1-R
Pinned/Underdefended Pieces: Black: f6-N, White: ?
Silman square count: White=15, Black=9
0-0: a good safe move at this point, tightens up White's position, defends two previously undefended pieces.
Nd5: Can force a recapture after NxNf6 ...gxNf6, opening up Black's K-side. I've looked at this line a little using a separate board, and it appears to lose my e-pawn too. It appears that this works regardless of whether the Black Q remains in place.
Originally posted by zucchiniIn light of your quoted analysis, why did you take Nd5 rather than o-o?
10 Nd5
(snip)
0-0: a good safe move at this point, tightens up White's position, defends two previously undefended pieces.
Nd5: Can force a recapture after NxNf6 ...gxNf6, opening up Black's K-side. I've looked at this line a little using a separate board, and it appears to lose my e-pawn too.
I think o-o would have been the better choice. Not to get ahead of things a bit, but (and don't let me forget to make this comment more fully after black's 13th move), leaving the king in the center here should indeed have lost the e pawn, and, had black undertaken the correct tactical response on move 13, (looks to be too late for it now) also prevented you from castling at all with a strong attack for black.
Originally posted by paultopiaI thought it was best to be agressive, if I was sure I could still castle. It looked like I only had one more chance to break up the castled King's pawn cover, and that seemed like it is worth a pawn.
why did you take Nd5 rather than o-o?
For example: ...Ba5+ 11 Nd2 to block, leaving g5-Bishop hanging, but I was going to trade it anyway
if 11 ...Q <any move> 12 Bxf6 and Black cannot recapture due to a K-Q fork on f6
11 ... Re8 12 Bxf6 ... gxf6 then 13 0-0 (perhaps followed by ... BxNd2 14 QxBd2 ... Rxe4, but this B-Np trade seems lopsided)
Did you see another line?
Originally posted by zucchiniWell, I'll hafta jump the gun a bit again... but in the game as played 13. ... Bxc4! then you either recapture, in which case he stomps on your king with Rxe4, or you make those menacing mate threats by moving the knight, in which case 14. ... f5 is still playable as it both guards the g4 death square AND gives his queen access to the kingside.
Did you see another line?
General principles, I think it's a bad idea to open or increase the tactical tension in the center before you've castled unless you have a REALLY GOOD REASON for doing so (ie. your opponent hasn't castled either and you can keep him from doing so, or you have a major development advantage and you can attack, or you can win material).
Originally posted by paultopiaI thought blocking with my dark square bishop with 15 Be3 would be good enough.
... in the game as played 13. ... Bxc4! then you either recapture, in which case he stomps on your king with Rxe4
Originally posted by paultopia
... it's a bad idea to open or increase the tactical tension in the center before you've castled...
I appreciate the criticism. I decided that losing a pawn was worth opening the Black King's pawn cover, and thought I could still castle without any trouble more serious than a trade. But I did forget to factor in isolating my pawns. It was probably too great a gamble.
Originally posted by zucchiniThat would probably be the best defense ... although I'd still be worried about (a) losing the initative and (b) getting a whole buncha wood dumped on that open file... it would only take a couple moves for him to triple major pieces on it, and eek! :-)
I thought blocking with my dark square bishop with 15 Be3 would be good enough.
Okay...bunch of missed opportunities...here goes...
ECO: C53: Giuoco Piano Sidelines
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 d6 5. d4 Bb6 (last book move) 6. Bg5 Nf6 7. Nbd2
Okay...personally I think 7. dxe5!? would have been better followed by: 7...Nxe5 8. Nxe5 dxe5 9. Qxd8+ Kxd8 10. Bxf7... (White slightly winning)
7...exd4 8. Nb1
Again...personally I think 8. cxd4!? would have been a better choice: 8...Nxd4 9. Nxd4 Bxd4 10. Qa4+ Kf8 11. 0-0 =
8...dxc3 9. Nxc3 0-0 10. Nd5 Be6 11. Nxf6+
A better choice would have been 11. Bxf6!? going to: 11...gxf6 0-0 =
11...gxf6 12. Bh6?
A blunder. Better would have been: 12. Bxe6 fxe6 13. Bh6 Rf7 (Black slightly winning)
12...Re8??
Weaking a good position. 12...Bxc4 13. Nd2 Be6 14. Qf3 -+
13. b3?
Prevents intrusion on c4. 13. Bxe6!? Rxe6 14. 0-0 Rxe4 15. Qd5 (Black slightly winning)
13...f5 14. 0-0 Qf6 15. Bg5...
If Black wants my advice, 15...Qg7 is the next move.
P.S. Seriously...I need to play you zucchini...
Originally posted by yamiyokazeHey Yamiokaze-
Okay...bunch of missed opportunities...here goes...
ECO: C53: Giuoco Piano Sidelines
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Bc5 4. c3 d6 5. d4 Bb6 (last book move) 6. Bg5 Nf6 7. Nbd2
Okay...personally I think 7. dxe5!? would have been better followed by: 7...Nxe5 8. Nxe5 dxe5 9. Qxd8+ Kxd8 10. Bxf7... (White slightly winning)
7...exd4 8. Nb1
Again...p ...[text shortened]... k wants my advice, 15...Qg7 is the next move.
P.S. Seriously...I need to play you zucchini...
Even though this is an unrated game, I think it would be better to refrain from giving advice to either of the players on moves to come, and stick to commenting on past moves.
Originally posted by yamiyokazeI see you are new. Welcome to the site, and thanks for your comments.
...here goes...
I do appreciate them, but in some places I did not understand why you thought a position was better, so I made note of where your comments were unclear to me. Also, I would like to keep the order of comments close to that of the game, so I will only comment up to move 10 here (and will continue the rest as the moves are posted).
Originally posted by yamiyokaze
Okay...personally I think 7. dxe5!? would have been better followed by: 7...Nxe5 8. Nxe5 dxe5 9. Qxd8+ Kxd8 10. Bxf7... (White slightly winning)
For 7. dxe5, I thought the reply ...dxe5 is more likely. This offers a Q-trade that seems to have no value. Did you have another idea?
Originally posted by yamiyokaze
8. cxd4!? would have been a better choice: 8...Nxd4 9. Nxd4 Bxd4 10. Qa4+ Kf8 11. 0-0 =
For 8. cxd4, it seems to me that material is even with the line I played. Could you explain why you think this is better? Also, in your continuation (8...Nxd4 9. Nxd4 Bxd4 10. Qa4+) it seems that Bd7 to block and counter attack is more natural.
(You pointed out some mistakes later on in the game. Thanks for comments. I'll ask for more input from you later when this thread catches up to those points.)