Two kinghts defence

Originally posted by adam warlock
8... Qxg2!

Well yes it's a losing line for white so may as well go down quickly!

The Palkovi transposition line 6.Bf1! is much better than 6.dxc6?:

"Black's move b5 is a witty try to take over the initiative at the cost of a pawn sacrifice, and White has got to be alert if (s)he wants to gain an advantage. At that time (1941) players tried to refute the Ulvestad Variation in various ways, but this task is far from being simple. Some time had to pass before it turned out that for White it is dangerous to accept the pawn at once, and his best choice is the surprising 6Bf1!."

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
Well yes it's a losing line for white so may as well go down quickly!

The Palkovi transposition line 6.Bf1! is much better than 6.dxc6?:

"Black's move b5 is a witty try to take over the initiative at the cost of a pawn sacrifice, and White has got to be alert if (s)he wants to gain an advantage. At that time (1941) players tried to refute the ...[text shortened]... t is dangerous to accept the pawn at once, and his best choice is the surprising 6Bf1!."

Yes. I think that in this line black should concentrate on piece activity, dynamism and really try to master of the light squares. White is just full of holes in them. g2 is just asking for tactics and besides material the only thing I see that is in white's advantage is his pawn at c6. I say this because I think that fianchettoing black's light square bishop is a very powerful weapon for black. Na5! is objectively better but b5 just allows black for a lot calling the shots opportunities to be scorned.

Take a look at the game I posted with my first try on this. I think that it can be seen how I tried to take advantage of a very active queen and the light squared bishop.

Edit: 8. f4 never crossed my mind untill someone posted it and I'm not fully satisfied with my reply as of yet. And of course for more things on this just take a look at Berliner's game I posted and all the kibitizing. I think that a lot of useful stuff are discussed there.

Originally posted by najdorfslayer
Yeah sure just let me know when 🙂

Alright! When my game load is more free I'll PM you.

Originally posted by adam warlock
Yes. I think that in this line black should concentrate on piece activity, dynamism and really try to master of the light squares. White is just full of holes in them. g2 is just asking for tactics and besides material the only thing I see that is in white's advantage is his pawn at c6. I say this because I think that fianchettoing black's light square ...[text shortened]... can be seen how I tried to take advantage of a very active queen and the light squared bishop.

6.Bf1!...Nd4! 7.c3 (transposing to the Fritz) tends to score much better for white so everything else is pretty much a moot point.
If you're playing someone OTB then the 5...b5 idea may be good try, but if they've got half a brain - or database/book resources - white will come out on top in a favourable variation.

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
6.Bf1!...Nd4! 7.c3 (transposing to the Fritz) tends to score much better for white so everything else is pretty much a moot point.
If you're playing someone OTB then the 5...b5 idea may be good try, but if they've got half a brain - or database/book resources - white will come out on top in a favourable variation.

7. ... Nxd5!

Originally posted by adam warlock
7. ... Nxd5!

Then 8.Ne4...Ne6 9.Bxb5+ is the mainline & also gives white a slight advantage.

This is all theory so it's rather unlikely you'll find a killer new move for black that years of GM analysis has missed.

Originally posted by adam warlock
Edit: 8. f4 never crossed my mind untill someone posted it and I'm not fully satisfied with my reply as of yet...

I think what you initially suggested (8. ... Qxc6) is indeed reasonable.

Here's a nice illustrative example from chesslive:

[Event "ICCF Jubilee P031 email"]
[Site "ICCF Email"]
[Date "2001.09.01"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Fernandes,Edmir Barbosa"]
[Black "Sawatzki,Joerg"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C57"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b5 6.dxc6 bxc4 7.Qe2 Qd5 8.f4 Qxc6
9.fxe5 Bg4 10.Qf2 Bc5 11.Qg3 0-0-0 12.Nc3 Rhe8 13.Kf1 Bf5 14.Nf3 Bxc2 15.d4 Rxd4 16.Nxd4 Bxd4
17.Be3 Bxe5 18.Qh3+ Kb8 19.Kf2 h5 20.Rhe1 Bxh2 21.Qxh2 Ng4+ 22.Kg1 Nxh2 23.Kxh2 Re6 24.Rac1 Bd3
25.Rcd1 Rg6 26.Rd2 Qd6+ 27.Kg1 Qg3 28.Rf2 Re6 29.Bd2 Rxe1+ 30.Bxe1 h4 31.Re2 Qg6 32.Re8+ Kb7
33.Bxh4 Qb6+ 34.Bf2 Qxb2 35.Be1 Qb6+ 36.Bf2 Qf6 37.Be1 g5 38.a4 g4 0-1

Position After 11. ... O-O-O



Clearly, black's piece development and activity are far stronger than white's extra pawn. Better for white was probably 10. Nf3. Note that 12. exf6 loses to 12. ... Qe8+!

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
Then 8.Ne4...Ne6 9.Bxb5+ is the mainline & also gives white a slight advantage.
[fen]r1bqkb1r/p1p2ppp/4n3/1B1np3/4N3/2P5/PP1P1PPP/RNBQK2R w - - 0 1[/fen]
This is all theory so it's rather unlikely you'll find a killer new move for black that years of GM analysis has missed.

No, no no. 8. ... Qh4

Originally posted by wittywonka
I think what you initially suggested (8. ... Qxc6) is indeed reasonable.

Here's a nice illustrative example from chesslive:

[Event "ICCF Jubilee P031 email"]
[Site "ICCF Email"]
[Date "2001.09.01"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Fernandes,Edmir Barbosa"]
[Black "Sawatzki,Joerg"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C57"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b ...[text shortened]... er for white was probably 10. Nf3. Note that 12. exf6 loses to 12. ... Qe8+!

Nice game but I think that 9. Qxe5+ is best for white. But still a lot of good ideas for black though. Castling long and letting the knigh en prise was a delight! 🙂

Originally posted by adam warlock
No, no no. 8. ... Qh4

8...Qh4?! "A move bringing about vast complications where Black sacrifices a piece in return for a strong attack."
9.Ng3
-Palkovi

So still advantage White & Black must sac a piece unless he plays the weak 9...Ne6? then 10.Bxb5+ & White is ahead.
And, if 9...Bg4! 10.f3...e4! 11.cxd4...Bd6 12.Bxb5+! is also clearly advantageous to White.
The interesting & rare 12.Qe2!? also seems a good response.

Do you mind me asking where you're getting these moves from as you quote no source & little analysis?

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
[b]8...Qh4?! "A move bringing about vast complications where Black sacrifices a piece in return for a strong attack."
9.Ng3
-Palkovi

So still advantage White & Black must sac a piece unless he plays the weak 9...Ne6? then 10.Bxb5+ & White is ahead.
And, if 9...Bg4! 10.f3...e4! 11.cxd4...Bd6 12.Bxb5+! is also clearly advantageous ...[text shortened]... ind me asking where you're getting these moves from as you quote no source & little analysis?[/b]

What?! 8. ... Qh4?!. Certainly that book of yours is kidding. Let me tell you that the author of that book either made no research or he's trying to deceive his readers. I don't know what's worst.

I've always seen this as 8. ... Qh4!. This line we are following now is well known from the Hans Berliner game I posted in one of my posts before. In that link there's a lot of the discussion made i the kibtizing in what's good or not on this opening. Some webpages are given too so that you can further deepen your analysis of it. The Mammoth Book of the World's Greatest Chess Games has an analisys of this game too and I have that book. On the other lines I'm just looking at the board. I think that the f4 idea that someone throwed in is a good try for white. After it Qxc6 seems very reasonable for black and wittywonka posted a game were this was played that was very interesting.

I think I already layed out what I think is important 5. ... b5!? 6. Bxb5 Qxd5 variation from my point of view. I did that hoping I'd get some feedback on it to see if I got any point wrong but so far no one has talked about that. But on the other side I don't want to give much more away cause it looks like I'll play a game with najdorfslayer in this variation in the near future.

Originally posted by adam warlock
What?! 8. ... Qh4?!. Certainly that book of yours is kidding. Let me tell you that the author of that book either made no research or he's trying to deceive his readers. I don't know what's worst.

Palkovi has been rated just under 2500.

You're starting to sound a little like ih8sens in the way you are the font of all knowledge regarding an obscure line in a (relatively) uncommon opening.

If you can refute the lines I give - fine. But at least give an openings specialist who was all but a Grandmaster some respect. You are, like me, a lower intermediate after all.
😛

Originally posted by adam warlock
...I think I already layed out what I think is important 5. ... b5!? 6. Bxb5 Qxd5 variation from my point of view. I did that hoping I'd get some feedback on it to see if I got any point wrong but so far no one has talked about that...

I think the reason speaks for itself - as I said before 6.Bxb5 is weak for White in comparison with the 6.Bf1! transposition line.

Why expect people to try to defend an inferior continuation?

Originally posted by Squelchbelch
Palkovi has been rated just under 2500.

This discussion is really interesting.... I can point out one little thing, the black player Hans Berliner is a GM on ICCF with CC-ELO on 2726.

Originally posted by wittywonka
I think what you initially suggested (8. ... Qxc6) is indeed reasonable.

Here's a nice illustrative example from chesslive:

[Event "ICCF Jubilee P031 email"]
[Site "ICCF Email"]
[Date "2001.09.01"]
[Round "0"]
[White "Fernandes,Edmir Barbosa"]
[Black "Sawatzki,Joerg"]
[Result "0-1"]
[Eco "C57"]

1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 d5 5.exd5 b er for white was probably 10. Nf3. Note that 12. exf6 loses to 12. ... Qe8+!

black has counterplay possibility though.... Nxf7 is a real threat...if white can increase the
pressure... The attack on f7 takes the absolute control of the d file away! black must
play Rf8 if this attack is allowed. Trading a Rook for a Knight and a weakened king position
Watch Nc3 (stops the current mate threat)...

look into the position past this attack, and you see d4 becoming valuable after en passant and cxd3
white has enough valuable control for play. however, I still don't like white
as after Rf8 Nxd8 Kxd8 black gains a new file in the f file 🙁