31 Mar 08
Originally posted by adam warlockDo you mean 5... b5 6.Bxb5 Qxd5 7.Be2?
I think I already layed out what I think is important 5. ... b5!? 6. Bxb5 Qxd5 variation from my point of view. I did that hoping I'd get some feedback on it to see if I got any point wrong but so far no one has talked about that.
31 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by adam warlockPerhaps, but after 9. ... Be7 white still has problems with g6 and underdevelopment in general, while black will follow up by playing an eventual Bb7 and moving his rooks to open files. My old version of Fritz rated the position after 9. ... Be7 as even.
Nice game but I think that 9. Qxe5+ is best for white. But still a lot of good ideas for black though. Castling long and letting the knigh en prise was a delight! 🙂
31 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by DagamoStyleThe Palkovi book is very thorough indeed. 250 pages of rather detailed analysis.
This discussion is really interesting.... I can point out one little thing, the black player Hans Berliner is a GM on ICCF with CC-ELO on 2726.
In his discussion of the 8...Qh4?! line of the Fritz Variation, Palkovi suggests the same 9.Ng3...Bg4! 10.f3...e4! 11.cxd4...Bd6 12.Bxb5+!..Kd8 line as in Estrin-Berliner (he gives the date as 1967 corr.) http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1224863
The key move that has been missed however, and the bust to this line, is 13.Qb3!
Palkovi points out the mistake by Estrin:
"Rather than castling into his opponents attack, White would like occaisionaly to flee from the firing-line via c1-c2, and, in addition, the d5 knight is now hanging".
Of the line played in the game Adam Warlock quoted Palkovi says:
13.0-0?!
"The most common continuation, about which a powerful lot of opinions and analyses have been published already. One thing remains certain, namely that this move leads to rather tangled positions."
After 13.0-0?!...exf3 14.Qb3 is recommended, rather than 14.Rxf3 from Estrin-Berliner.
I just did a check on chesslive.de for the line Palkovi suggested for White beginning 13.Qb3!:
10 games
1-0 = 8
0-1 = 0
1/2 1/2 = 2
So it seems to back up the fact that Palkovi does indeed know his stuff.
31 Mar 08
2 edits
Game 3633930 Here is a game in the Qh4+ line as stated by Squelchbelch. My following play was not very precise although the final position is technically won for white.
The Be7 line in the mainline mentioned also by Squelchbelch leads to a draw as white has to return the pawn with d4 at some point. Black proceeds with 0-0, f5, and Nf4. Haven't looked the line for some time though...
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by SquelchbelchHans Berliner is something like a CC GM. He has a lot of stuff on this opening and I think I already gave you some authors on this. But here I go again: Hans Berliner and his celebrated game on the CC championiship, Graham Burgess, John Nunn and John Emms that agree with a lot of that Berliner said on his analysis of the game I posted and Tim Harding.
If you can refute the lines I give - fine. But at least give an openings specialist who was all but a Grandmaster some respect. You are, like me, a lower intermediate after all.
😛
If you go, and I'm starting to think that you haven't, to the game link I provided (here it goes again just for the fun of it http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1224863) and check out the kibitzing and web pages provided with analysis on this you''ll see that I'm hardly the only guy that has an interest on this line.
hmpf!!!
😛
31 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by YugaThis one was analysed by Berliner too and it seems that with correct play by black things either go down equal or with a slight advantage for black. But Be assured that I'll take a deep look to this game of yours. 🙂
Game 3633930 Here is a game in the Qh4+ line as stated by Squelchbelch. My following play was not very precise although the final position is technically won for white.
The Be7 line in the mainline mentioned also by Squelchbelch leads to a draw as white has to return the pawn with d4 at some point. Black proceeds with 0-0, f5, and Nf4. Haven't looked the line for some time though...
Thanks for the example. 🙂
31 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by SquelchbelchWell, games results don't mean squat untill you analyse the games themsleves.
The Palkovi book is very thorough indeed. 250 pages of rather detailed analysis.
In his discussion of the 8...Qh4?! line of the Fritz Variation, Palkovi suggests the same [b]9.Ng3...Bg4! 10.f3...e4! 11.cxd4...Bd6 12.Bxb5+!..Kd8 line as in Estrin-Berliner (he gives the date as 1967 corr.) http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1224863
The ke 1 = 0
1/2 1/2 = 2
So it seems to back up the fact that Palkovi does indeed know his stuff.[/b]
If you want we can take on this line after I get me some games off. 😛
By the way, what's the difference between this gambit and thew Smith-Morra gambit?
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by adam warlockCheck the kibitzing yourself!
If you go, and I'm starting to think that you haven't, to the game link I provided (here it goes again just for the fun of it http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1224863) and check out the kibitzing ...
Trogdor: White would be winning after 14.Qb3!
Moonlit Knight:As pointed out, 14.Qb3 should be winning for white. After 14...Nb4 15.Qxf7 fxg2 16.Rf4 should stop the black attack.
Or from The worlds greatest chess games - Burgess/Nunn/Emms:
p.311
"13.0-0
Or:
...
2) 13.Qb3...Bxg3+ 14.Kd1...Be6 15.Bc6...exf3 16.Bxd5...fxg2 17.Qxf3...Bg4 18.Bxa8! is good for white..."
31 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by adam warlockI certainly will not be playing you any more challenges you make in the forums - I'll just assume you win.
If you want we can take on this line after I get me some games off. 😛
By the way, what's the difference between this gambit and thew Smith-Morra gambit?
Or, to quote a 2000+ rated RHP player who analysed your win against my Morra gambit after a similiar forum challenge; "Other than that, well played. Almost no mistakes, I rarely ever do that."
😉
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by SquelchbelchI certainly disagree with that quote. I think I made two mistakes. One of them still makes me kick myself everytime I look into that game. But other than that this is my feeling to that quote. 😏
I certainly will not be playing you any more challenges you make in the forums - I'll just assume you win.
Or, to quote a 2000+ rated RHP player who analysed your win against my Morra gambit after a similiar forum challenge; "Other than that, well played. Almost no mistakes, I rarely ever do that."
😉
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by Squelchbelchhttp://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2dcbt5k&s=3
Check the kibitzing yourself!
[b]Trogdor: White would be winning after 14.Qb3!
Moonlit Knight:As pointed out, 14.Qb3 should be winning for white. After 14...Nb4 15.Qxf7 fxg2 16.Rf4 should stop the black attack.
Or from The worlds greatest chess games - Burgess/Nunn/Emms:
p.311
"13.0-0
Or:
...
2) 13.Qb3...Bxg3+ 14.Kd1...Be6 15.Bc6...exf3 16.Bxd5...fxg2 17.Qxf3...Bg4 18.Bxa8! is good for white..."[/b]
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by adam warlockI simply provided the fact that the only 10 games played with the 13.Qb3! line of the Fritz Variation of the 2-Knights ended with 8 wins for White & 2 draws.
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2dcbt5k&s=3
Yuga also won quite easily with this line (beating a player banned for engine use) Game 3633930
See also Game 781377 The only one I find in gamesexplorer & guess what - a win for White.
You have provided no evidence whatsoever. Surely you'd like to know the best line if you ever have to play the White side of this?
31 Mar 08
Originally posted by SquelchbelchThanks fpr the other game.
I simply provided the fact that the only 10 games played with the 13.Qb3! line of the Fritz Variation of the 2-Knights ended with 8 wins for White & 2 draws.
Yuga also won quite easily with this line (beating a player banned for engine use) Game 3633930
See also Game 781377 The only one I find in gamesexplorer & guess what - a win for Wh ...[text shortened]... ever. Surely you'd like to know the best line if you ever have to play the White side of this?
Of course I'm interested in playing the best line (seldomly I do it 😞) fom both sides but I think that 6. Bf1! and 13. Qb3! still haven't busted black on this line. On the link I gave there is some lines given. One of them is good for white, one has a slght advantage for black and the other one seems to be about equal. So guess what to wich lines I'll be pointing ig I get to play this opening a lot? 😉
One other thing that you have said though? Why do you think this is unsound and that the Smith-Morra is sound. On the thread we made after our game a line was given that seemed like shattered the soundness of the Morra. But don't you still play it and reccomend it hoping that black doesn't know how to play it? That's one of the reasons I'm interested in going deep on this opening right now. I'm thinking about OTB games and 20 min games. White goes Ng5 hoping to attack and then you steer him in to this direction in which he has lots of space for going wrong.
31 Mar 08
1 edit
Originally posted by adam warlock1.e4...e5 2.Nf3...Nc6 3.Bc4...Nf6 4.Ng5...d5 5.exd5...b5 6.Bf1...Nd4
Thanks fpr the other game.
Of course I'm interested in playing the best line (seldomly I do it 😞) fom both sides but I think that 6. Bf1! and 13. Qb3! still haven't busted black on this line. On the link I gave there is some lines given. One of them is good for white, one has a slght advantage for black and the other one seems to be about equal. So d then you steer him in to this direction in which he has lots of space for going wrong.
7.c3...Nxd5 8.Ne4...Qh4 9.Ng3...Bg4 10.f3...e4 11.cxd4...Bd6
12.Bxb5+...Kd8 13.Qb3...Bxg3+ 14.Kd1...Be6 15.Bc6...exf3
16.Bxd5...fxg2 17.Qxg3...Qxg3 18.hxg3...Bxd5 19.Rg1...Re8
20.Nc3...Bf3+ 21.Kc2...Rb8 22.d3...Rb6 23.Bf4...h6
Is the line given by Burgess/Emms & Nunn stating a "slight advantage to Black"
There is no bust to the Morra - I just played inaccurately.
If there was a bust to it, then the line would be published & the Morra would cease to be played.