24 Mar 09
Originally posted by KellyJay….I disagree, you have spent post after point expressing your OPINIONS
I disagree, you have spent post after point expressing your opinion
as I have, you have not answered all my questions. When it got to
first cause, the all things from nothing you basically just said, that
was when time started there was no before that is bunk! There is
no getting away from a first cause in either ID or a godless BIG
Bang! At some point ...[text shortened]... l
tone to it, as I’m quite sure my reaction here does to you too, for
that I’m sorry.
Kelly
as I have,
..…(my emphasis)
Stop pretending that those people who repeatedly give ARGUMENTS against your assertions are merely giving “OPINIONS”! -this is highly rude and offensive.
…you have not answered all my questions.
..…
If that is true, then at last you are getting a taste of your own medicine!
-NOW do you see how rude and offensive it is to persistently not answer questions?
….I'm not attempting to be
rude to you,
..…
But your appalling style of debating IS very rude to all of us -if you want to be shown respect in any debate then try doing all the following:
1, actually give clear answer to ALL questions -and I mean REALLY answer them!
2, do NOT pretend that an argument is ’just an opinion’ -instead, try giving COUNTERARGUMENTS.
3, do NOT be totally oblivious to the content of somebody’s post by give a response that just states some ‘point’ that is irrelevant to what the person actually said.
4, avoid any vague words/statements that are difficult for the reader to interpret.
24 Mar 09
Originally posted by KellyJayAn opinion is a belief which is held despite lack of proof. Now in science something is held to be proven if it falls within confidence intervals, so the results of a big drug trial might give a relative risk of mortality for patients with some serious condition (e.g. heart failure) on some drug of 0.75 with a 95% confidence interval of [0.5 to 0.95] - this is enough to prescribe the drug to patients with that condition as there is good evidence that they are less likely to die than people on a placebo or whatever the comparison treatment was. The difficulty I have with the argument is that you are insisting on a level of proof higher than this - you are effectively arguing that we cannot make a statement unless our confidence intervals are 100%.
I disagree, you have spent post after point expressing your opinion
as I have, you have not answered all my questions. When it got to
first cause, the all things from nothing you basically just said, that
was when time started there was no before that is bunk! There is
no getting away from a first cause in either ID or a godless BIG
Bang! At some point ...[text shortened]... l
tone to it, as I’m quite sure my reaction here does to you too, for
that I’m sorry.
Kelly
The debate was initially about the correctness of the modern theory of evolution. As we presented evidence (I´m including only the real world examples in this) you shifted your position to first cause. In the realm of abiogenesis you refused to accept the starting point I presented on page 15, third from bottom, as a starting point. You see, the reason I was reluctant to post about how cellular life started was that I already had! Then the argument moved to the big bang. At this stage you insist on the need for a reason, I do not. This reflects a fundamental philosophical difference, but not the point I´m trying to get you to accept.
If two theories produce identical predictions then you cannot distinguish between them. Since you cannot have a theory with a designer produce predictions that differ from what is observed, and the scientific theories are required to not significantly deviate from observation we essentially have two different cosmologies predicting the same results. To all practical purposes this means that they are the same theory. If you can never distinguish between two theories on the basis of observation they are equivalent.
This is the point of me introducing the God of the Gaps, your position seems to require that God designed the universe in such a way that makes it possible to distinguish his design from the theories of science. To a good level of confidence the universe works by the rules we think it does. If you want to believe in the mythology of the Old Testament then you have to deny science. If, on the other hand, you believe in a God who created the universe to appear undesigned for his own ineffable reasons then I see no particular contradiction.
24 Mar 09
I only shifted my position, because people would not stick to subject
at hand, instead they continually asked me about my views on
creation, I wanted without a doubt to stay on the process of evolution.
Do not throw that at my feet as if I was attempting to change the
subject, go back and read the threads! For crying out loud, look at
Mr. Keep Science pure on the Science forum Fabian, he kept bringing
up God so much I thought he had converted to some cult! Once the
issue with I.D. about where the designer was designed became ‘the
subject’ I just took the argument there to show how all of our (man’s
views) run into the same problem.
Do not for a second think I will not stay on topic stick with your
evidence and not bring up the spiritual here, but you will find that my
motives for my beliefs will still become the topic of discussion with
many here not the evidence. You did it yourself, as if I cannot have
an objection to how the process is described without it growing out
of some religious notion. I do not have issue one with science, where
I have an issue is where some people think an explanation of what
could have caused an event turns into facts in their minds instead of
just a hypothesis or a theory, and then they have the audacity of
belittling another’s faith when all they have is faith as well.
With respect to confidence levels, I've been exposed to enough
process's to know that changing conditions yield different results so I'm
not at all impressed with people's views over time when they are
comparing items being tested today under one set of conditions and
then making huge assumptions this means X over thousands,
millions, or billions of years. You simply do not know, you may guess,
you may hypothesis, you may create a theory but until you reproduce
the conditions you are working on a level of faith, you believe some
things remain true over time that you can only assume do so your
confidence levels no matter what you claim they are, are just beliefs.
More to follow, I am starting a book here and I don't want to do that.
Kelly
24 Mar 09
Originally posted by KellyJayNow, look here Mr Sensitive! Are you allowed to attacking me, and you start to whine whenever you think I'm attacking you?! Are all creationists the same? You time after time clearly demonstrate your belief that you are the only one who can be rude to others, and when others talks about you, then you start to whine! Now, behave!
For crying out loud, look at Mr. Keep Science pure on the Science forum Fabian, he kept bringing up God so much I thought he had converted to some cult!
24 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnasIt was strickly an observation, nothing mean spirited about it! I even
Now, look here Mr Sensitive! Are you allowed to attacking me, and you start to whine whenever you think I'm attacking you?! Are all creationists the same? You time after time clearly demonstrate your belief that you are the only one who can be rude to others, and when others talks about you, then you start to whine! Now, behave!
pointed out to you your attempts at getting me to talk about creation
were against the theme of your existence at RHP where you are always
going on about keeping science and religion apart from one another.
It isn't like I start threads for you telling you where you can and
cannot post, it isn't like I start threads for you so I can name what
you think I should be talking about. I just gave up and gave you
what you wanted, I started talking about creation on the science
board.
Kelly
24 Mar 09
Originally posted by KellyJaySo you want ohers to stand your remarks, but you whine when others make remarks about you? Is this what you say? That you have an exclusive right to whine?
It was strickly an observation, nothing mean spirited about it! I even
pointed out to you your attempts at getting me to talk about creation
were against the theme of your existence at RHP where you are always
going on about keeping science and religion apart from one another.
It isn't like I start threads for you telling you where you can and
cannot ...[text shortened]... and gave you
what you wanted, I started talking about creation on the science
board.
Kelly
Now listen: You said that you would start a thread about evolution, when you don't do it, but I do, you whine.
When you promise to give proof of your pet theory, dinos on the ark of Noah, and you don't, and we point it out, then you whine.
When you turn your beliefs into solid facts, then you demand respect for it. The the same time you turn scientific solid facts into beliefs, and ridicule others for having them.
You are as anti science as noone I know of and yet you resides the Science Forum as if it is your own playground.
Now, behave!
25 Mar 09
Originally posted by FabianFnasNope, you spout off quite a bit and I don't wine about it, from time
So you want ohers to stand your remarks, but you whine when others make remarks about you? Is this what you say? That you have an exclusive right to whine?
Now listen: You said that you would start a thread about evolution, when you don't do it, but I do, you whine.
When you promise to give proof of your pet theory, dinos on the ark of Noah, and you d ...[text shortened]... know of and yet you resides the Science Forum as if it is your own playground.
Now, behave!
to time I do. I don't have a corner on the market of wine and by
all means call me on it when I go off on you. I'm no different than
you are I can get out of hand like the next guy.
I also never told you or never said it to anyone else I could turn my
faith/beliefs into solid facts! I've repeatedly tell you the reason I do
not bring up creation in the Science forum is just for that reason, it
cannot be done, it is either accepted or rejected on faith.
I have said I'll do a few things and when I get around to them I will,
and it will be when I do them not when you demand them from me.
Kelly
25 Mar 09
Originally posted by KellyJayYou have a tatoo in you forehead that says "I am right and you are wrong!" And if there was place for it it would continue "I never know what I'm talking about but I'm dead sure that I'm right and you're wrong!"
Nope, you spout off quite a bit and I don't wine about it, from time
to time I do. I don't have a corner on the market of wine and by
all means call me on it when I go off on you. I'm no different than
you are I can get out of hand like the next guy.
I also never told you or never said it to anyone else I could turn my
faith/beliefs into solid facts! ...[text shortened]... und to them I will,
and it will be when I do them not when you demand them from me.
Kelly
When will you present the proofs of your dinos and humans? You said you had the proofs, and yet you refuse to present them? I've even created a thread for it, but you still refuse to give the refs or proofs? This is not an attack on you, but you clearly say things you don't mean, you still hold things for true when you don't know what you're talking about. Or do you just lie and think to get away with it?
Not many people (even one?) agree with you, not many people (even one?) back you up. You're quite lonely in your funny beliefs, and you will stay that way until you learn from others, and not invent your own little theories.
Say after me: "I don't know much, and I will not ever demonstrate it so clearly again!"
25 Mar 09
Originally posted by FabianFnasYep, that is me, if I believe something getting exposed to your
You have a tatoo in you forehead that says "I am right and you are wrong!" And if there was place for it it would continue "I never know what I'm talking about but I'm dead sure that I'm right and you're wrong!"
When will you present the proofs of your dinos and humans? You said you had the proofs, and yet you refuse to present them? I've even created ...[text shortened]... er me: "I don't know much, and I will not ever demonstrate it so clearly again!"
unbelief will not matter to me. If being in the majority is so important
to you, your a sheep, stick your finger in the air to see what way the
wind is blowing so you'll know what to believe next, because you are
not thinking for yourself you must be part of the herd. Like I said I'm
going to post those things I said I would, some require time and
research others just require time. When I get around to it will be when
it get done.
Kelly
25 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJaySo you see it's a good quality to know so little about science as possibile in order to avoid being among the majority of people?
Yep, that is me, if I believe something getting exposed to your
unbelief will not matter to me. If being in the majority is so important
to you, your a sheep, stick your finger in the air to see what way the
wind is blowing so you'll know what to believe next, because you are
not thinking for yourself you must be part of the herd. Like I said I'm
going ...[text shortened]...
research others just require time. When I get around to it will be when
it get done.
Kelly
Believing that dinos lived among humans (or humans living among dinos) is an example of your wish to know as little as possible.
I don't follow authorities as you follow preachers. I think for myself. I think outside the box. Your box is your bible, you cannot think outside it. And when you are forced to do it you invent ideas from scratch in order to make the pozzle work of ryou. Your dinoson the ark is again an example of this.
Now, end the dino story and give us the promised proof that you are right in this? Don't you dare? Don't you want? Or don't you know?
25 Mar 09
Originally posted by FabianFnasYou have never seen one argument from me that came from any
So you see it's a good quality to know so little about science as possibile in order to avoid being among the majority of people?
Believing that dinos lived among humans (or humans living among dinos) is an example of your wish to know as little as possible.
I don't follow authorities as you follow preachers. I think for myself. I think outside the ...[text shortened]... omised proof that you are right in this? Don't you dare? Don't you want? Or don't you know?
preacher I have ever sat under, these are just side topics to them and
me for that matter. The things that matter more in Christianity is our
relationship to God in Christ not how old the earth is, or these types
of discussions. I don't care one wit if someone believes in evolution
or an old universe it does matter to their salvation, nor will it stop
God from getting glory and honor from their lives if they believe in
these things and they are saved. I've told you this numerous times
yet your prejudice wins out and you still accuse me of that nonsense
on no proof, you just want to believe that is true so you believe it
even when you’re told repeated it isn't true.
Kelly
25 Mar 09
Originally posted by KellyJayYou are in constant avoidance of questions. Let me repeat once more, once again, and I hope for the last time:
You have never seen one argument from me that came from any
preacher I have ever sat under, these are just side topics to them and
me for that matter. The things that matter more in Christianity is our
relationship to God in Christ not how old the earth is, or these types
of discussions. I don't care one wit if someone believes in evolution
or an old u ...[text shortened]... believe that is true so you believe it
even when you’re told repeated it isn't true.
Kelly
Believing that dinos lived among humans (or humans living among dinos) is an example of your wish to know as little as possible.
Now, end the dino story and give us the promised proof that you are right in this?
Don't you dare? Don't you want? Or don't you know?
Yopu promised to give the proofs. Are you a liar? Avoid this qeustion and you prove to me that you are. Be honest and act in honour this time, if you have any...
25 Mar 09
1 edit
Originally posted by FabianFnasI did not promise to give proofs, that was you, I promised to give the
You are in constant avoidance of questions. Let me repeat once more, once again, and I hope for the last time:
Believing that dinos lived among humans (or humans living among dinos) is an example of your wish to know as little as possible.
Now, end the dino story and give us the promised proof that you are right in this?
Don't you dare? Don't you w n and you prove to me that you are. Be honest and act in honour this time, if you have any...
reasons I believe what I do. If you want to go back and prove me
a liar feel free. It is your lies that will be exposed here, since I never
said that, you did.
Kelly
26 Mar 09
Originally posted by KellyJayNow you say you don't have any proofs of dinos living at the same time as humans. It just an idea of yours, not provable. Fine. Why didn't you admit this from the beginning? Why waste our times with this nonsense?
I did not promise to give proofs, that was you, I promised to give the
reasons I believe what I do. If you want to go back and prove me
a liar feel free. It is your lies that will be exposed here, since I never
said that, you did.
Kelly
From where did you get your funny little idea? Did you invent it yourself, or did you pick up som hoax from somewhere that you eagerly wanted to believe in? Is it of biblical reasons, i.e. a part of your religion?
You did try to prove it once by giving us a link with a lot of non-relevant text that had nothing to do with dinosaurs, cave men drawings, or anything. Did you really believe that you could fool us with that?
Can we now drop this idea of yours? Or do you want to continue with this little charade of yours?
26 Mar 09
Originally posted by FabianFnasNow I'm saying you need to bring up the posts where I said I did have
Now you say you don't have any proofs of dinos living at the same time as humans. It just an idea of yours, not provable. Fine. Why didn't you admit this from the beginning? Why waste our times with this nonsense?
From where did you get your funny little idea? Did you invent it yourself, or did you pick up som hoax from somewhere that you eagerly wante ...[text shortened]... we now drop this idea of yours? Or do you want to continue with this little charade of yours?
them, because without a doubt I don't think those words ever left my
keyboard. What I think happened is you, as you have a habit of doing
simply started thinking you knew what it was I believed and just gave
me credit for something you 'believe' I actually think. It does not
really matter to you I may not actually believe the things you accuse
me of, it is enough for you to believe it so it must be true.
Kelly