A Bible related question regarding free will

Originally posted by PatNovak
I think you are arguing two somewhat contradictory things. You argue that we cannot completely understand the "spiritual realm" or the way angels think. Also, you argue that an angelic rebellion is impossible. The only way a person should be able to argue that an angelic rebellion is impossible is if they have complete understanding of the situation, but you have argued that we cannot completely understand this situation.

...you argue that an angelic rebellion is impossible

No, it couldn't have been impossible the first time it happened if it happened a first time. I believe it's impossible to happen again for reasons I have already stated...

...impossible

to

happen

again

for

[the] reasons

I

have

already [before]

stated

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]...you argue that an angelic rebellion is impossible

No, it couldn't have been impossible the first time it happened if it happened a first time. I believe it's impossible to happen again for reasons I have already stated...

...impossible

to

happen

again

for

[the] reasons

I

have

already [before]

stated[/b]

Let me rephrase slightly, since you don't appear to understand what I was saying:

I think you are arguing two somewhat contradictory things. You argue that we cannot completely understand the "spiritual realm" or the way angels think. Also, you argue that a FUTURE angelic rebellion is impossible. The only way a person should be able to argue that a FUTURE angelic rebellion is impossible is if they have complete understanding of the situation, but you have argued that we cannot completely understand this situation.

Originally posted by lemon lime
You wouldn't have to rely on intuition if you had read the Bible, because then you would know if I was making this up or not.

Yes, I probably would. And my intuition tells me I would know that you were making it up.

But why would you need to guess? This information is available to you and has been for a very long time. Are Bibles unavailable where you live? You don't actually need a hard copy of the Bible, you could find out about this for yourself online... but this would entail going to websites that could cause you to become blind from flashes of supernatural light, so you're probably better off playing it safe and remaining ignorant.
So I guess you are not going to tell us where you are getting this information. My intuition seems to be right.

Originally posted by PatNovak
Let me rephrase slightly, since you don't appear to understand what I was saying:

I think you are arguing two somewhat contradictory things. You argue that we cannot completely understand the "spiritual realm" or the way angels think. Also, you argue that a FUTURE angelic rebellion is impossible. The only way a person should be able to argue that a FUTU ...[text shortened]... nding of the situation, but you have argued that we cannot completely understand this situation.

...you have argued that we cannot completely understand this situation.

That's right, but we don't need to have all the details to be able to come to an informed decision:

Lucifer is the determining agent X

X defies God

X is able to influence others of his kind

X causes a division into two camps, those who are for him and those who are against him

There is war in heaven, between the angels who serve God and the angels who serve Lucifer

God finally puts his foot down and tosses Lucifer and his goons out of heaven.

Lucifer becomes Satan and takes up residence on Earth

He can't screw with anyone in heaven now so he starts over by screwing with other creatures God cares about... nasty little bugger, isn't he?

He manages to create problems for mankind by dividing them into two camps, those who choose to serve God and those who choose to serve him.

beginning to see a pattern here yet?

Many years later a couple of guys are talking about this, and one of them keeps trying to bring the focus back to the one salient point of his argument, which is that Satan is no longer Lucifer working his magic in heaven.

He was unceremoniously evicted from heaven a long time ago. So where is this angel formerly known as Lucifer, and who is he screwing with now? If not the angels in heaven then who?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yes, I probably would. And my intuition tells me I would know that you were making it up.

[b]But why would you need to guess? This information is available to you and has been for a very long time. Are Bibles unavailable where you live? You don't actually need a hard copy of the Bible, you could find out about this for yourself online... but this would ...[text shortened]... are not going to tell us where you are getting this information. My intuition seems to be right.

LOL

I see... so your intuition would still be telling you I was making this up, even though you don't know because you haven't bothered to look into it. In other words, your intuition is able to override any evidence you don't want to agree with or look at if that evidence is able to prove I was not making any of this up... even though you couldn't possibly know one way or the other if you didn't bother to look into it. The science of denial is something I've never really looked into, so I'm not sure how to respond to many of your insights and flashes of intuition.

I've forgotten just how weird it can get when atheists come here of their own volition and free will and consent to clearing up matters that weren't foggy to begin with...

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]...you have argued that we cannot completely understand this situation.

That's right, but we don't need to have all the details to be able to come to an informed decision:

Lucifer is the determining agent X

X defies God

X is able to influence others of his kind

X causes a division into two camps, those who are for him and those who a ...[text shortened]... ormerly known as Lucifer, and who is he screwing with now? If not the angels in heaven then who?[/b]

Can you demonstrate hat Lucifer/Satan is/was the only angel who could lead a rebellion? If, as you claim, we cannot completely understand the "spiritual realm," then the answer is that of course you cannot. All you are really doing is claiming that you know things about the spiritual realm that support your position, and anytime something counters your position, you claim that the spiritual realm and angels cannot be completely understood by people. To say you are not making a compelling argument is an understatement.

Originally posted by PatNovak
Can you demonstrate hat Lucifer/Satan is/was the only angel who could lead a rebellion? If, as you claim, we cannot completely understand the "spiritual realm," then the answer is that of course you cannot. All you are really doing is claiming that you know things about the spiritual realm that support your position, and anytime something counters your posi ...[text shortened]... tely understood by people. To say you are not making a compelling argument is an understatement.

To say you are not making a compelling argument is an understatement.

The title of this thread and my first post was no accidental choice of words, because I anticipated questions and comments from people like you.

A Bible related question regarding free will.

So far you haven't tried to use the Bible to discredit anything I've said. Neither has twhitehead. If you choose to ignore the source of this question then how do you expect to argue intelligently one way or the other?

Originally posted by lemon lime
If you fall out of a tree and break your leg, or you see someone falling out of a tree and breaking their leg, what is the probability that you (as a human and not an angel) will learn from that and try to avoid breaking your leg in the future?

But is it 100% unlikely you'd break your leg anyway, even with that lesson learned in the
back of your head? What if your house is on fire and the only way out is by climbing the
tree right outside your bedroom window, and you slip? I guess I'm asking, how do you
know that no other angel will find cause to defy god's will in the future, despite knowing
the possible outcome?

Somewhat unrelated, a question: What's the point of having free will if you're only going to
follow orders? Seems somewhat self-defeating to me. In fact, if an all-wise entity decides
to create beings, almost as powerful as herself, with free will to decide their own faith,
doesn't that imply she has some use for them where their free will comes into play (other
than merely doing as she commands)? Follow up: And isn't it at all possible that beings
who are not all-wise, when they excersise their free will, will make bad choices?

Originally posted by C Hess
But is it 100% unlikely you'd break your leg anyway, even with that lesson learned in the
back of your head? What if your house is on fire and the only way out is by climbing the
tree right outside your bedroom window, and you slip? I guess I'm asking, how do you
know that no other angel will find cause to defy god's will in the future, despite knowing ...[text shortened]... that beings
who are not all-wise, when they excersise their free will, will make bad choices?

I don't know anyone who gripes about having free will, but there are plenty of people who gripe about having to choose between Gods way and some other way. What's the point of having free will if there is nothing to choose? Not having a choice is pretty much the same as following orders... no free will needed either way, so what's the difference?

...how do you know that no other angel will find cause to defy god's will in the future...

I've never claimed to know this, because I can't know this. No one can. However, based on what I've seen/read in the Bible there is no reason for me to believe it will happen again.

BIBLE related question... seriously, is it really necessary for me to put any of this in CAPS and bold print?

Originally posted by lemon lime
I see... so your intuition would still be telling you I was making this up, even though you don't know because you haven't bothered to look into it.

Yes, intuition is what we use when we lack solid evidence.

In other words, your intuition is able to override any evidence you don't want to agree with...
Not true at all. I never said anything about my intuition overriding evidence.

... or look at if that evidence is able to prove I was not making any of this up...
I actually asked you to provide the evidence, but you decided to side step it.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I've never claimed to know this, because I can't know this. No one can. However, based on what I've seen/read in the Bible there is no reason for me to believe it will happen again.

Oh, but I must object to this my good lemon lime. You have, not once, but several times
claimed that it's a hundred percent unlikely, based on some part of the bible I can't be
arsed to look up, that no angel will ever rise against god's will again, and now you wish to
wiggle your way out of that? Oh no, cute lime monkey, that won't do. That won't do at all.

Instead, show us where in the bible you get this from.

Originally posted by C Hess
Oh, but I must object to this my good lemon lime. You have, not once, but several times
claimed that it's a hundred percent unlikely, based on some part of the bible I can't be
arsed to look up, that no angel will ever rise against god's will again, and now you wish to
wiggle your way out of that? Oh no, cute lime monkey, that won't do. That won't do at all.

Instead, show us where in the bible you get this from.

Limeboy doesn't need to prove anything. He has blind faith. Don't confuse him with facts.

The Bible, like any good work of fiction, leaves unanswered questions to pique the curiosity
of readers and invite speculation. Wouldn't you rather root for the angels than the demons?

Originally posted by lemon lime
The title of this thread and my first post was no accidental choice of words, because I anticipated questions and comments from people like you.

A [b]Bible related question regarding free will.

So far you haven't tried to use the Bible to discredit anything I've said. Neither has twhitehead. If you choose to ignore the source of this question then how do you expect to argue intelligently one way or the other?[/b]

That is a fair point, and I probably shouldn't have posted in this thread. However, I will say that not a single poster, yourself included, has quoted or referenced a single line from the bible in this thread.

Originally posted by PatNovak
That is a fair point, and I probably shouldn't have posted in this thread. However, I will say that not a single poster, yourself included, has quoted or referenced a single line from the bible in this thread.

That's because not a single poster (who believes what the Bible says) has so far disagreed with the premise that angels have free will, or has disagreed with anything I've said about Lucifer/Satan. So ask yourself, given the fact that people (who believe what the Bible says) can disagree on so many other points, why do we seem to be in agreement on this one point?

As far as you posting in this thread, I'm gratified at least one detractor here realizes this is the Spirituality forum. Before I started this thread I was toying with the idea of waiting until it would be appropriate for me to suggest I should have brought this up in the Science forum, but I would need to frame the question differently. I could ask for instance, "How does Science define free will?" Then I could sit back and watch for answers like this:

Science does not define free will
Free will is an illusion
There is no soul, we are simply biological machines
Take it to the Spirituality forum, Spanky!

Originally posted by lemon lime
That's because not a single poster (who believes what the Bible says) has so far disagreed with the premise that angels have free will, or has disagreed with anything I've said about Lucifer/Satan. So ask yourself, given the fact that people (who believe what the Bible says) can disagree on so many other points, why do we seem to be in agreement on this o ...[text shortened]...
There is no soul, we are simply biological machines
Take it to the Spirituality forum, Spanky!

So you have nothing to back up your claim.