A question of honesty

Originally posted by lemon lime
I don't recall suggesting relationships can be simply extinguished (for example) by fear... what does that mean?

In response to this post by bbar...

Originally posted by bbarr
Actually, I think this question of FMF's is a good one. I'm not sure where you responded elsewhere in these threads, but I'm curious about what you and other Christians would say.

I am devoted to my wife. As far as I'm concerned, she's the best part of creation. I can't imagine what it would be like to have a "sense of morality and psychology" such that I could know she is in torment and not rage against it. If she went to Hell, then I'd feel as though I were there, too.

So, can you explain what "sense of morality and psychology" I'd need in order to, somehow, be OK with this? Relatedly, how could I come to have such a psychology and still be, in any sense, me?

You answered in this way...

Originally posted by lemon lime
I understand this isn't something you believe, and that your interest in this is academic. But if you happen to be wondering why God might have set it up this way, I'll leave any speculation about that to someone else. For me there is definitely a fear factor when it comes to questioning Gods' sense of morality and psychology. Job passed his test, but that didn't stop God from reading Job the riot act before lifting him out of his troubles.

Originally posted by FMF
In response to this post by bbar...

Originally posted by bbarr
[b]Actually, I think this question of FMF's is a good one. I'm not sure where you responded elsewhere in these threads, but I'm curious about what you and other Christians would say.

I am devoted to my wife. As far as I'm concerned, she's the best part of creation. I can't imagine wha ...[text shortened]... t that didn't stop God from reading Job the riot act before lifting him out of his troubles.[/b]

This construct the posters who believe in the doctrine of eternal suffering are creating, do you see it as them attempting to escape the horror of the scenario? It seems to me to be a sort of self immunisation from a self inflicted belief.

Originally posted by lemon lime

If your "loved one" cared about themselves (or you) they would have done what it takes to be with you (in heaven). So you make a choice and your loved one makes a different choice.

What if her only "crime" was that she was not a Christian? Surely you do not think that a non-Christian is unable to "care for herself" or "care for me"?

So put on your big boy pants and learn to deal with it.

The removal of anguish, I believe, would make the opposite of anguish ~ joy ~ rather meaningless, more especially so if it were a permanent and unchanging state of joy. Don't you agree?

Originally posted by FMF
In response to this post by bbar...

Originally posted by bbarr
[b]Actually, I think this question of FMF's is a good one. I'm not sure where you responded elsewhere in these threads, but I'm curious about what you and other Christians would say.

I am devoted to my wife. As far as I'm concerned, she's the best part of creation. I can't imagine wha ...[text shortened]... t that didn't stop God from reading Job the riot act before lifting him out of his troubles.[/b]

That's right, I don't question Gods' sense of morality and psychology.

If you want to question Gods integrity and sense of fair play, then you are free to do so. If you want to question the integrity and internal consistency of the Bible, then you are free to do so. If you intend to claim you have not been doing this, then pffft liar liar pants on fire.

If you are interested in the mechanics of how God is able to free us from anguish and torment, I've already said I can't explain that. Wondering how this can be accomplished with our identities intact is a separate question, and so far no one has yet adequately explained how I could end up being someone else. I don't have a problem believing I will always be me... and no amount of philosophical or psychological examination of what it means to be me can convince me I will be someone else.

Is this clear now? Can you hear me now? Hello, earth to FMF... are you there?

Originally posted by lemon lime
That's right, I don't question Gods' sense of morality and psychology.

Be that as it may, but can you explain it in a way that makes it morally and psychologically coherent?

Originally posted by lemon lime
I don't have a problem believing I will always be me... and no amount of philosophical or psychological examination of what it means to be me can convince me I will be someone else.

Well, if you are willing to do some amount of philosophical or psychological examination of what it means to be you in the context of the "heaven" you describe, why not share it with us as it would be on topic?

Originally posted by lemon lime
Is this clear now? Can you hear me now? Hello, earth to FMF... are you there?

You said: "Wondering how this can be accomplished with our identities intact is a separate question, and so far no one has yet adequately explained how I could end up being someone else." If you thought bbar's comment about this "separate question" (earlier on this thread) was inadequate, can you show where you demonstrated or argued this?

Originally posted by FMF
Well, if you are willing to do some amount of philosophical or psychological examination of what it means to be you in the context of the "heaven" you describe, why not share it with us as it would be on topic?

There are a number of questions that can be asked about this scenario:

1) how is it someone in heaven would not feel anguish?
2) assuming God is able remove our fears and anguish, how is he able to accomplish this?
3) why would God allow someone in heaven to suffer anguish because they know a loved one is in hell?

We can toss out #3 (the why) because according to the Bible it won't happen... no one in heaven will feel anguish or torment for any reason.

Answering #2 answers #1, so the relevant question is 'how'. The how asks about the mechanics of God removing memory, or if memory is intact then how does he remove the anguish. My answer is I don't know... and neither do you, because in order to know you would need to be God, or maybe one of his angels.

"Waking from a dream" does not address the mechanics question. That was simply an idea of how transition from life to afterlife might appear to someone observing his own transition. The question of mechanics in the spiritual realm cannot be answered. We are only familiar with how the mechanics of anything might work here in the natural realm.

Well, if you are willing to do some amount of philosophical or psychological examination of what it means to be you in the context of the "heaven" you describe, why not share it with us as it would be on topic?

Until someone can adequately explain how I wouldn't be me (loss of identity) then I must assume I would be me.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I don't understand this idea of eternal hand wringing and grief over someone who rejected God, and chose to not be with Him (and you) whether you care about them or not.

Seeing as we have been talking about beloved spouses and children ~ with whom our relationships form a quintessential part of our humanity and uniqueness, can you see how this comment of yours about not understanding what you call "hand wringing and grief" over the fate of these life-defining loved ones might indicate that you are to some degree dehumanized by your efforts to rationalize your particular notion of "heaven"?

Originally posted by lemon lime
Until someone can adequately explain how I wouldn't be me (loss of identity) then I must assume I would be me.

What about bbar's explanation?

Originally posted by FMF
You said: "Wondering how this can be accomplished with our identities intact is a separate question, and so far no one has yet adequately explained how I could end up being someone else." If you thought bbar's comment about this "separate question" (earlier on this thread) was inadequate, can you show where you demonstrated or argued this?

Are you unable to find where I've demonstrated (or argued) this? You seem to be able to find anything you want to find with remarkable ease, so why should this be any different?

Originally posted by FMF
What about bbar's explanation?

bbar is busy with Thanksgiving stuff.... ing. He will be back to weigh in on this when he has time.

Originally posted by FMF
Anguish. Joy. Love. Compassion. Relationships. Memories. And the narrative that joins all these and many other things together. These are the things that create a unique identity with humanity. Don't you agree?

Don't you agree?

No.

Originally posted by lemon lime
bbar is busy with Thanksgiving stuff.... ing. He will be back to weigh in on this when he has time.

It's you who is being asked to weigh in on what he said. He was clear about what he thought and his explanation was clear too.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Are you unable to find where I've demonstrated (or argued) this? You seem to be able to find anything you want to find with remarkable ease, so why should this be any different?

If you can't, that's fine.

If you want to question Gods integrity and sense of fair play, then you are free to do so. If you want to question the integrity and internal consistency of the Bible, then you are free to do so. If you intend to claim you have not been doing this, then pffft liar liar pants on fire.

I am simply questioning you about the coherence of your beliefs as you lay them out here in public.