A question of honesty

Originally posted by divegeester
Did you get a handle on whether or not people in heaven will be aware of those who are in hell?

Yes, on LL's view we will be aware of those suffering in Hell, we just won't care about them anymore. When you get to Heaven, apparently, you undergo some pretty radical psychological changes.

Originally posted by DeepThought
It was a quote to DeepThought, not by me.

Thanks, now it makes sense why it struck me as irrelevant.

Originally posted by twhitehead
What mustn't be lost in this discussion, is what is it that we care about. Whatever your definition of mind/soul/body/consciousness/intellect etc, which parts do you believe could survive beyond death, and do you care about them if they did (or didn't)?
Although I concede that the 5 year old entity that I grew up from was 'me', if it was suddenly to be w ...[text shortened]... ll right now, I am not sure if I would care all that much. I don't really see it as me any more.

Right. And the same reasoning applies in the other direction. If the psychological properties and characteristics I'd have in Heaven are radically dissimilar from those I have now, then I'm not sure why I should be concerned about going to Heaven. It's those core psychological properties and characteristics that I take to be constitutive of who I am. They ground my values, my choices, my entire life. If all this fades away in Heaven, then the afterlife is just death by a different name.

Originally posted by bbarr
Yes, on LL's view we will be aware of those suffering in Hell, we just won't care about them anymore. When you get to Heaven, apparently, you undergo some pretty radical psychological changes.

A few here reckon I'm going there and they don't care now, let alone up there post the spiritual moral lobotomy.

Originally posted by divegeester
A few here reckon I'm going there and they don't care now, let alone up there post the spiritual moral lobotomy.

Nothing to worry about. No God worth the name would send anybody to Hell.

Originally posted by bbarr
Yes, on LL's view we will be aware of those suffering in Hell, we just won't care about them anymore. When you get to Heaven, apparently, you undergo some pretty radical psychological changes.

It's just occurred to me that he doesn't have Biblical justification. There's that bit in the Gospels where Jesus says something to the effect of: "There is more joy in Heaven over one Sinner who repents than there is over a thousand righteous people.". This means that they must care about the fates of mortals, and the flip side is that they'd grieve over lost souls.

Originally posted by DeepThought
It's just occurred to me that he doesn't have Biblical justification. There's that bit in the Gospels where Jesus says something to the effect of: "There is more joy in Heaven over one Sinner who repents than there is over a thousand righteous people.". This means that they must care about the fates of mortals, and the flip side is that they'd grieve over lost souls.

If you follow lemon lime's posts you will find mostly confused contradictory conjecture punctuated by the occiasional blatant lie.

Originally posted by divegeester
If you follow lemon lime's posts you will find mostly confused contradictory conjecture punctuated by the occiasional blatant lie.

Come on, that's not fair. He's been very forthright in our recent discussion. Nobody responds well to feeling like they're being attacked.

Originally posted by bbarr
Nothing to worry about. No God worth the name would send anybody to Hell.

2 Peter 3:9 (NASB) "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance [a change of mind about Christ]." bbarr, it's a matter of personal choice.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
2 Peter 3:9 (NASB) "The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance [a change of mind about Christ]." bbarr, it's a matter of personal choice.

If God is patient and wishes that we all come to Christ, then He would give us all the time and evidence necessary to do so. Have a little faith in God, He'll make sure that nobody suffers eternal torment for His own failure to convince.

Originally posted by DeepThought
It's just occurred to me that he doesn't have Biblical justification. There's that bit in the Gospels where Jesus says something to the effect of: "There is more joy in Heaven over one Sinner who repents than there is over a thousand righteous people.". This means that they must care about the fates of mortals, and the flip side is that they'd grieve over lost souls.

Luke 15:5-8 NASB: "5 When he has found it, he lays it on his shoulders, rejoicing. 6 And when he comes home, he calls together his friends and his neighbors, saying to them, ‘Rejoice with me, for I have found my sheep which was lost!’ 7 I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents [changes his or her mind about the person and work of Christ] than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance." Excellent recall, DT.

Originally posted by bbarr
If God is patient and wishes that we all come to Christ, then He would give us all the time and evidence necessary to do so. Have a little faith in God, He'll make sure that nobody suffers eternal torment for His own failure to convince.

God patiently provides everything in grace to reconcile the total depravity of human nature with His Holiness [Justice and Righteousness: Divine Integrity] while respecting our free will. Separation from Him for eternity is a personal decision.

Originally posted by bbarr
Come on, that's not fair. He's been very forthright in our recent discussion. Nobody responds well to feeling like they're being attacked.

I'm sure there is more to him than meets the eye and the exchange between you and he I didn't read; but otherwise, based on my own experience it is fair.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Separation from Him for eternity is a personal decision.

There is no eternity outside of God's presence and there is certainly no eternal hell where god keeps his unfortunate victims sustained alive in an incinerator.

Originally posted by bbarr
Nothing to worry about. No God worth the name would send anybody to Hell.

In this passage Jesus teaches that there IS something to worry about.

1.) The words "but rather fear" are advice as to where worry should be directed.

2.) The words "but rather fear Him who is able ..." give the reason why worry should be had. "Him" - God, has an additional ability that man does not have.

3.) The words "but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna" indicate the divine ability possessed by Him which warrants fear.

God is able to destroy both soul and body in a Gehenna of punishment.

Now if MAN ties you up and throws you into an earthly Gehenna, and soul and body are distroyed, then there would be no logical reason for Christ to point out that God has some ADDITIONAL ability beyond this. The very fact that He contrasts man to God has to mean the destruction in Gehenna Christ speaks of is something beyond what man can do.

Here is the passage:

"And do not fear those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul; BUT RATHER FEAR HIM who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. " (Matthew 10:28)

The bottom line here is that this is a direct teaching from the mouth of Jesus Christ TELLING us to FEAR God concerning this matter. And bbarr's claim -

Nothing to worry about. No God worth the name would send anybody to Hell.

This is in direct contradiction to New Testament teaching. There may be a reason NOT to worry. But that is a reason that there is safety, security, and peace in Jesus Christ as the one who "delivers us from the wrath whch is coming." (1 Thess. 1:10)

"And await His Son from the heavens, whom He raised from the dead, Jesus, who delivers us from the wrath which is coming." (1 Thess. 1:10)

"Much more then, having now been justified in His blood, we will be saved through Him from the wrath." (Rom. 5:9)

The parallel passage in Luke 12:4 is also a direct exhortation to the disciples about Whom should be feared, or worried about concerning punishment:

"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do.

But I will show you who you should fear: FEAR HIM who, after killing, has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I tell you, fear this One." (Luke 12:4,5)

In this passage three times Jesus is teaching us about something to worry about or to fear -

1.) "But I will show you whom you should fear ..." (v.5)
2.) " ... fear Him who, after killing has authority ... etc" (v.5)
3.) " ... yes, I tell you, fear this One." (v.5)

I think He is advising mankind about legitimate worry about the extra authority of God in the realm of punishment.

Having said this, I would add that there is something else I think those who tamper with the word of God should fear. Jesus said to some opposing scribes and Pharisees that they closed the kingdom of God to men and made certain of those whom they influence became twice more a child of hell then themselves.

Matthew 23:13 - "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrits! For you close off the kingdom of the heavens in the face of men; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to enter."

Matthew 23:15 - "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you go about the sea and the dry land to make one proselyte; and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of Gehenna as yourselves. "

Jesus therefore also taught that men should fear closing salvation off to other people who would enter in had we not given them reasons to not.

Jesus also taught that some "teachers" may so influence people as to make them twice as much a candidate for eternal damnation as themselves.

So we need to be careful. And security, peace, and joy which eliminates worry and fear is found in being in union with the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.