Spirituality
08 Nov 14
01 Dec 14
Originally posted by FMFNo wonder, sonship, one might say, in view of the ideology you espouse involving the punishment by eternal torture (in your imagination) for the billions who don't believe the stuff you say.
The entire basis of what you imagine is horrifically pessimistic and misanthropic.
01 Dec 14
Originally posted by sonshipWe are not in some kind of spiritual "bake off", sonship. You present your elaborate imaginings and assertions, and people respond to it. Why would I have to have "something better" to try to trump your fantasies?
God's entire eternal purpose and salvation are too wonderful.
If you have something better what is it?
Originally posted by sonshipWhether or not you like it, once your notion of "perfect justice" and "glory" is understood for the sheer "moral" ghastliness it actually is, it stinks up every single thing you then say. "Jesus loves you" is a flower wasted on the desert air in the "reality" of your ideology. Just my penny's worth, that's all.
Cue - get torture in there as soon and as much as possible.
01 Dec 14
Originally posted by lemon limeSo you distinguish between the mind and the soul? Where the mind is all the characteristics that you listed, but the soul is the essential you.
This might be a better way of explaining what I mean:
your identity
your character traits
your value systems
your personal relationships
your memories
What these all have in common is the word "your". So instead of saying the 'essential' you let's call it the central you. All of these traits and aspects of personality and memories are attached t ...[text shortened]... our lump of clay can be influenced and shaped but it never stops being your lump of clay.
01 Dec 14
2 edits
Originally posted by DeepThoughtI'm not so sure there is much difference (if any) between mind and soul. If my awareness here shifts to awareness there, wherever (or whatever) there happens to be, and it's the same me who is observing, then I think mind and soul would have to be the same or intertwined. I'm not familiar with how theologians would explain this, but soul is as good a word as any to describe the unseen me, you, us etc.
So you distinguish between the mind and the soul? Where the mind is all the characteristics that you listed, but the soul is the essential you.
It occurs to me the reason for the two different ideas here is our different beliefs. Belief in no afterlife and no spiritual reality to move on to naturally casts the idea of what it means to be you in a different light. Some people say self awareness and identity is basically an illusion... the body dies, and any awareness we had dies with it.
The other point of view is that we have a soul, and that soul is essentially us. The part of us that lives on and is us. Our surroundings will have dramatically changed (for better or worse) but we will be the same person insofar as who we are.
These two points of view inform our questions and reasoning, so it's really no surprise there should be two conflicting points of view here.
Edit: I just now realized what you meant by the mind. I'm saying your characteristics (all the ones I've seen listed) are not you. I don't define characteristics as being the mind. People will change over the course of their lives, but this doesn't mean they become someone else. I'm the same person who started out as a child, grew up, had experiences that changed the way I think, learned things I didn't know before... all this without ever once turning into someone else.
01 Dec 14
Originally posted by lemon limeThis is all fascinating I'm sure, but to get back to point; are you still of the opinion that those in heaven will not be aware of those suffering in hell?
I'm not so sure there is much difference (if any) between mind and soul. If my awareness here shifts to awareness there, wherever (or whatever) there happens to be, and it's the same me who is observing, then I think mind and soul would have to be the same or intertwined. I'm not familiar with how theologians would explain this, but soul is ...[text shortened]... nk, learned things I didn't know before... all this without ever once turning into someone else.
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01 Dec 14
Originally posted by DeepThoughtThe mind is part of the soul.
So you distinguish between the mind and the soul? Where the mind is all the characteristics that you listed, but the soul is the essential you.
The soul consists of the mind, the emotion, and the will.
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01 Dec 14
1 edit
Originally posted by lemon lime
I'm not so sure there is much difference (if any) between mind and soul. If my awareness here shifts to awareness there, wherever (or whatever) there happens to be, and it's the same me who is observing, then I think mind and soul would have to be the same or intertwined. I'm not familiar with how theologians would explain this, but soul is as good a word as any to describe the unseen me, you, us etc.
We are a three-part being consisting of spirit - soul - body.
"And the God of peace Himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved complete, without blame, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thess 5:23)
I think it would be of profit for you to spend some time at this website -
http://www.tripartiteman.org/
It occurs to me the reason for the two different ideas here is our different beliefs. Belief in no afterlife and no spiritual reality to move on to naturally casts the idea of what it means to be you in a different light. Some people say self awareness and identity is basically an illusion... the body dies, and any awareness we had dies with it.
What we enjoy of Christ today is a foretaste of more to come.
Identity is with us now and we may expect will be forever.
But we are foretasting a reality of enjoying God which we can expect will expand and deepen and enter into realms yet only dimly touched.
The independent soul-life of self centered ego life is being metabolically changed. By one degree to another to another, the Holy Spirit seeks to transform the believers into the same image of Jesus.
"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. But we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory even as from the Lord Spirit." ( 2 Cor. 3:17,18)
The regenerating Spirit is also the transforming Spirit.
We were born again to grow again.
This occurs as we "behold" deep in our hearts the Lord Who as Holy Spirit indwells us. Gazing continuously with "the eyes of our heart" upon Him we are being transformed from glory to glory into His image.
The main ingredient to our transformation into His image is the renewing of the mind.
"And do not be fashioned according to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and well pleasing and perfect." (Romans 12:2)
This website on Having a Time With The Lord is very helpful practically in both being transformed and having the mind renewed.
"A Time With The Lord" by Witness Lee
http://www.ministrybooks.org/books.cfm?id=12FA96
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01 Dec 14
Originally posted by FMFI want my penny back. Nothing there worth a whole lot.
Whether or not you like it, once your notion of "perfect justice" and "glory" is understood for the sheer "moral" ghastliness it actually is, it stinks up every single thing you then say. "Jesus loves you" is a flower wasted on the desert air in the "reality" of your ideology. Just my penny's worth, that's all.
01 Dec 14
Originally posted by sonshipI think we have a language difference, what you call the soul I'd call the mind. What you refer to as mind I'd call reason. So in my language you are saying that the soul and mind are the same thing. You seem to believe in physical resurrection so if the entire body is there it's clearly the whole deal and not just one part.
The mind is part of the soul.
The soul consists of the mind, the emotion, and the will.
01 Dec 14
Originally posted by lemon limeI think we were talking about more or less the same thing. Mentioning the list in your post was an afterthought. I'd regard memories and so on as essential parts of the mind, but I have a feeling of continuity despite gaining new memories, experiences etc..
I'm not so sure there is much difference (if any) between mind and soul. If my awareness here shifts to awareness there, wherever (or whatever) there happens to be, and it's the same me who is observing, then I think mind and soul would have to be the same or intertwined. I'm not familiar with how theologians would explain this, but soul is ...[text shortened]... nk, learned things I didn't know before... all this without ever once turning into someone else.
I was watching a program about theories of mind ages ago. They were talking about something (as I remember) that they called a self meta-program (or possibly meta self-program). The description they gave was that it is a bit of the mind which watches all the other parts and is the part that thinks it's you. The thing that is doing the observing of thought in "Cognito ergo sum". Bear in mind it's over ten years ago that I saw the program and don't remember it clearly. They had this guy who had spent too long in a sensory deprived tank (as a volunteer), and when he was asked who he was said: "Like the professor said I'm a self meta-program.". The reason I bring this up is that that's the part of the mind (if this theory of mind is any good) you seemed to be talking about.