A question to atheists

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Because, quite simply, you find something of the artist in his artwork.

I want evidence that god exists, if I open my soul to him, accepting therefore that he might exist, and look for him, I might find him. But I don't see any reason to think that god might exist, so why should I look for him in the first place?

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Because you didn't create yourself. You can take something that's already there and modify it - but you're not responsible for your existence in the first place.

Well no, my parents are responsible for my existence in the first place. They were the initial artists.

At this point I make myself into who I am - I am the current artist. When I look into my soul, I see my parents and I see myself as creators of who I am.

-JC

Originally posted by Starrman
I want evidence that god exists, if I open my soul to him, accepting therefore that he might exist, and look for him, I might find him. But I don't see any reason to think that god might exist, so why should I look for him in the first place?

The fact that humanity has, for all of history as we know it, believed in the existence of the divine is a good enough reason to start looking.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
The fact that humanity has, for all of history as we know it, believed in the existence of the divine is a good enough reason to start looking.

I very much doubt the existence of that belief was because of divinity, but instead misunderstanding and a desire to reconcile the normative state of questioning one's surroundings. The rest is social and habitual reinforcement.

Originally posted by Churlant
Well no, my parents are responsible for my existence in the first place. They were the initial artists.

At this point I make myself into who I am - I am the current artist. When I look into my soul, I see my parents and I see myself as creators of who I am.

-JC

Not even they. Your parents couldn't force a particular spermatazoon to combine with a particular ovum to form you. Your parents have no control over what a particular combination of genes do to you. They probably had some mild control over the conditions under which your mother carried and gave birth to you.

Your parents are not so much artists as discoverers.

This is only a little less true of you. You do not control every experience that affects and shapes you.

Originally posted by Starrman
I very much doubt the existence of that belief was because of divinity, but instead misunderstanding and a desire to reconcile the normative state of questioning one's surroundings. The rest is social and habitual reinforcement.

I didn't say that was a scientific "proof" of God (and there are many things that scientists themselves use that cannot be proven in the way you expect) - I said that was a good enough reason to start looking.

If you find that there is no God, then fine. But you have to be at least intellectually honest and sincere about it - being open to either possibility.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
I didn't say that was a scientific "proof" of God (and there are many things that scientists themselves use that cannot be proven in the way you expect) - I said that was a good enough reason to start looking.

If you find that there is no God, then fine. But you have to be at least intellectually honest and sincere about it - being open to either possibility.

I am open to it, I don't personally think that any position in which I was not is particularly defendable. I still am not convinced that there is any point in looking though.

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Not even they. Your parents couldn't force a particular spermatazoon to combine with a particular ovum to form you. Your parents have no control over what a particular combination of genes do to you. They probably had some mild control over the conditions under which your mother carried and gave birth to you.

Your parents are not so much artists as ...[text shortened]... nly a little less true of you. You do not control every experience that affects and shapes you.

Are you actually claiming that God goes around personally overseeing every particular spermatazoon and every particular ovum as they combine, along with genetic variation within that union? Kind of depressing if you consider genetic defects part of God's work.

Nonsense, all of it.

God can have all the power He likes, without my parents, I'm not here.

I do not control every experience, but I do control my reaction to every experience, both internal and external. I can take an event and attribute it to God, or I can take that same event and call it life.

God has no choice in the matter. Not much of an artist.

-JC

Originally posted by lucifershammer
Alright, so maybe people will agree on the existence (?) and position of Pluto. But you'll find disagreement as to whether Pluto is a planet or not. If you get into theories of the origin of the Universe, or what happens within singularities, you will get even more disagreement. Does that mean that the origin of the Universe does not have an underlyin ...[text shortened]... n knowing. For instance, do you know if your partner/spouse loves you? How would you prove it?

Another example: People disagreed about the shape of the earth. Does that mean it has no shape?

Disagreement does not infer nonexistence.

Originally posted by Churlant
Are you actually claiming that God goes around personally overseeing every particular spermatazoon and every particular ovum as they combine, along with genetic variation within that union? Kind of depressing if you consider genetic defects part of God's work.

Nonsense, all of it.

God can have all the power He likes, without my parents, I'm not here. ...[text shortened]... same event and call it life.

God has no choice in the matter. Not much of an artist.

-JC

I [b]do control my reaction to every experience, both internal and external.[/b]

Ever tried any hallucinogenics?

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]I [b]do control my reaction to every experience, both internal and external.[/b]

Ever tried any hallucinogenics?[/b]

No, though I suppose you want me to qualify my admittedly unequivocal statement. Very well:

"I do generally have the ability to control my reactions to experiences within my daily life, both internal and external - unless I'm on hallucinogenics or otherwise physically/mentally impaired."

-JC

Originally posted by Churlant
No, though I suppose you want me to qualify my admittedly unequivocal statement. Very well:

"I [b]do generally have the ability to control my reactions to experiences within my daily life, both internal and external - unless I'm on hallucinogenics or otherwise physically/mentally impaired."

-JC[/b]

Lol. Fair enough.

Do you believe in a physically constrained existence of cause and effect? If so, then your "control" is merely an illusion.

If you are to retain control of your actions and not merely be a complex mind-machine of stimulus and response, you have already opened yourself to a metaphysical, supernatural definition of the mind where the "soul" transcends your corporeal existence.

Originally posted by Halitose
Lol. Fair enough.

Do you believe in a physically constrained existence of cause and effect? If so, then your "control" is merely an illusion.

If you are to retain control of your actions and not merely be a complex mind-machine of stimulus and response, you have already opened yourself to a metaphysical, supernatural definition of the mind where the "soul" transcends your corporeal existence.

I retain control within the context of (normally) unalterable constraints inherent to the physical world I live in. The same applies psychologically, though those constraints are somewhat less limiting.

Personally I believe you're just trying to be a distraction. The point I'm making is that I still made the decisions whose consequences have formed the person I am today. We could debate the actual amount of "choice" I had for each, but that would be independent of the core argument of God vs Me.

-JC

Originally posted by Churlant
I retain control within the context of (normally) unalterable constraints inherent to the physical world I live in. The same applies psychologically, though those constraints are somewhat less limiting.

Personally I believe you're just trying to be a distraction. The point I'm making is that I still made the decisions whose consequences have formed the p ...[text shortened]... ice" I had for each, but that would be independent of the core argument of God vs Me.

-JC

I retain control within the context of (normally) unalterable constraints inherent to the physical world I live in. The same applies psychologically, though those constraints are somewhat less limiting.

You're avoiding the question. If every action has an underlying cause, then these "constraints" of yours are the real causes of your existence -- the chains that direct your every action and reaction; the fact that you seem to "will" it is merely an illusion.

Although you might think I'm only proving to be a distraction, my point is that your supposed "freedom" only really functions in a transcendent context -- as much as you don't like it, the concept of the supernatural (and God) is very much part of the picture.

Originally posted by Halitose


You're avoiding the question. If every action has an underlying cause, then these "constraints" of yours are the real causes of your existence -- the chains that direct your every action and reaction; the fact that you seem to "will" it is merely an illusion.

Although you might think I'm only proving to be a distraction, my point is that your suppos ...[text shortened]... 't like it, the concept of the supernatural (and God) is very much part of the picture.

It's not that I don't like it, I'm just not sure I agree, or maybs I just don't understand. It doesn't seem reasonable to conclude that the underlying limitations of existence are supernatural in origin - regardless of whether a God/god can be credited or not.

I agree with the concept, but don't believe it moves beyond mere conceptualization at this point.

-JC