14 Feb 07
Originally posted by amannion"It's a potential human until it's born obviously."
It's a potential human until it's born obviously.
I'd define human as being an individual of the homo sapiens species.
What else did you expect?
Okay the few seconds before and after it is born, the 'life' before and after birth, what changes besides the location? Something within the 'life' develop right at birth, besides your blessing that it can now be called a human life? It must be very plain for all to see 'obviously'!
Kelly
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by amannionThe only difference is your blessing.
Uh uh. Nice try, but completely different situation and you know it.
Yes, severely handicapped people require significant care, but this is care that could be provided by anyone.
There's only one person that can satisfy the needs of a foetus - and it 'aint you or me!
The foetus is a literal parasite on the mother.
The same could not be said for the handicapped.
Kelly
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by KnightWulfeMy concern would be toward my daughter, my anger and rage would be directed at the rapest, my love would not be with held from my grandchild, because they ended with a monster as a father, they have no control over that, neither would they be blamed for the crime of the father either.
My apologies for my delay in returning to this thread.
The question that I wished to pose was this:
Say your daughter is a teenager - 15 - and she is brutally raped by a criminally insane escaped convict and is impregnated, would you allow her to have that child?
As to the likelihood of the situation - yes, it is not likely, but rape happens, in ...[text shortened]... this is not meant to provoke. This is meant to see what kind of line there is...if there is one.
The life of the woman if it is in danger, if the child is 100% sure to die those are the two reasons I can see an abortion.
Kelly
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by KellyJaySo is a corpse a "but a stage in human development, nothing more, nothing less". However, at that particular stage of human development it no longer has rights. A non-viable fetus is a stage of human development that hasn't acquired rights yet.
It is amazing too call it a fetus it can be killed just because it is a fetus, call it a infant you cannot kill it just because it is a infant, call it a toddler you cannot kill it just because it is a toddler, call it a teenager you cannot kill it just because it is a teenager, call it an adult you cannot kill it just because it is an adult, call it elderl ...[text shortened]... elopment, nothing more, nothing less, yet open season on the human life that has started.
Kelly
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by KellyJayKJ, why should I care about some woman's first-trimester fetus (as an example)? It is nothing to be like it; it has no mentality; it doesn't have the capacity for any conscious states including pain; it cannot suffer; it has no point of view; it has no interests; it simply cannot be harmed. It doesn't even have the capacity to be this vulnerable entity that your brush often paints. What do I care if she wants to kill such a thing that resides within her own body? Primary concerns about the operation should be directed toward the woman who, unlike the fetus, can actually be harmed during the operation.
It is amazing too call it a fetus it can be killed just because it is a fetus, call it a infant you cannot kill it just because it is a infant, call it a toddler you cannot kill it just because it is a toddler, call it a teenager you cannot kill it just because it is a teenager, call it an adult you cannot kill it just because it is an adult, call it elderl ...[text shortened]... elopment, nothing more, nothing less, yet open season on the human life that has started.
Kelly
Speciesism and religious fiat cloud judgment on this matter. If a person were really worried about normative obligations like minimizing undue pain and suffering, he would be more concerned about our treatment of pigs, chicken, and cattle than he would be about abortions that occur within the first couple trimesters. And he would be concerned about such abortions primarily to the extent that the woman/couple/family involved gets proper care.
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by KellyJayDo you believe a five year old boy is equivalent to a 28 year old man?
I do believe I know what you were asking, I didn't think my questions were that hard either, I didn't notice an attempt at them either.
Kelly
Do you believe a three year old girl is equivalent to an 18 year old woman?
As victims of a crime, yes. A person who murders a 5 year old boy should get the same sentence as a person who murders a 28 year old man if all other circumstances being equal.
What is the relevance?
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by no1marauderWell, when people declare open season on killing a corpse we can talk.
So is a corpse a "but a stage in human development, nothing more, nothing less". However, at that particular stage of human development it no longer has rights. A non-viable fetus is a stage of human development that hasn't acquired rights yet.
Kelly
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by LemonJelloWhy do you worry about its pain, you are ending its life, its pain is important to you? What kind of value system is that, that pain makes it bad, but ending the life, okay fine?
KJ, why should I care about some woman's first-trimester fetus (as an example)? It is nothing to be like it; it has no mentality; it doesn't have the capacity for any conscious states including pain; it cannot suffer; it has no point of view; it has no interests; it simply cannot be harmed. It doesn't even have the capacity to be this vulnerable entity ...[text shortened]... uch abortions primarily to the extent that the woman/couple/family involved gets proper care.
Kelly
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by twhiteheadFine as a victim of a crime someone sets out to kill a fetus, that a crime with all circumstances being equal as they were in the 5 year old boy and the 28 year old man?
[b]Do you believe a five year old boy is equivalent to a 28 year old man?
Do you believe a three year old girl is equivalent to an 18 year old woman?
As victims of a crime, yes. A person who murders a 5 year old boy should get the same sentence as a person who murders a 28 year old man if all other circumstances being equal.
What is the relevance?[/b]
Kelly
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by KellyJayThe real question to be asked when it comes to abortion is why you think killing is 'wrong' and where do people get their 'rights' from. I think the second one is more important as the first question is really answered by saying that killing violates a persons 'right to life'.
Why do you worry about its pain, you are ending its life, its pain is important to you? What kind of value system is that, that pain makes it bad, but ending the life, okay fine?
Kelly
I see three possible solutions to "where do people get their rights from".
1. The theistic point of view that life is 'God given' and so are 'rights'.
2. General consensus.
3. Each individuals moral framework.
Democracy generally means that 2. is the answer to 'effective rights'.
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14 Feb 07
1 edit
Originally posted by amannionHey hold on a sec. Is a parasite dead or alive? You need some consistency in your reasoning...
Uh uh. Nice try, but completely different situation and you know it.
Yes, severely handicapped people require significant care, but this is care that could be provided by anyone.
There's only one person that can satisfy the needs of a foetus - and it 'aint you or me!
The foetus is a literal parasite on the mother.
The same could not be said for the handicapped.
14 Feb 07
Originally posted by amannionYou've already conceded that location has no bearing on your position. You assert that a state of being where one organism relies on another for nutrition and protection disqualifies it from moral consideration. How does supplying nutrition intravenously or orally change the state of the "parasitism"? The fact that you're constantly shifting the goalposts belies the precariousness of your position.
Uh uh. Nice try, but completely different situation and you know it.
Yes, severely handicapped people require significant care, but this is care that could be provided by anyone.
There's only one person that can satisfy the needs of a foetus - and it 'aint you or me!
The foetus is a literal parasite on the mother.
The same could not be said for the handicapped.
14 Feb 07
Claims that a single celled fetus is as human as an adult fall prey to the same issues that plague lucifershamers concept of the soul.
Any attempt to claim that a definition such as "Human being" is absolute will ultimately fail. There will always be gray areas. For example what happens with clones? What about a half fused egg cell and sperm. What about a half human embryo? and so on. In fact claims based on the potential for something will always suffer from the fact that potential can always be regressed further back.