abortion

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I've made a thread for you in debates.

Ha! Give me a day or two. Research is important to not look like an idiot.

Originally posted by Halitose
I'll try and remain politically-correct in my rebuttal. 😉

That won't be necessary; I hate political correctness. Just pointing out that your phrasing of the issue was meant to lead inexorably to a certain conclusion and that I could rephrase the issue to lead inexorably to a different conclusion.

Originally posted by Halitose
Ha!

I'm sure zeeblebot will spam it with "Touched By A Angel" episodes.

Originally posted by no1marauder
That won't be necessary; I hate political correctness. Just pointing out that your phrasing of the issue was meant to lead inexorably to a certain conclusion and that I could rephrase the issue to lead inexorably to a different conclusion.

Fair enough..

Originally posted by no1marauder
Speaking of accuracy, here's CNN report from March 2005:

Dr. Eduard Verhagen, clinical director of the hospital's pediatric clinic, told NPR in an interview that the babies who had been euthanized were born with incurable conditions that were so serious "(we) felt that the most humane course would be to allow the child to die and even active ...[text shortened]... eme suffering. And it is very rare. Where are all these 12 year olds being slaughtered, Ivanhoe?

First of all, stop your usual innuendo and your fantasies about "12 years old being slaughtered". I never claimed such a thing.
I stated that the "Groningen Protocol" was designed for children from birth upto 12 years old.

Secondly, you consume Dr. Verhagen's story without any examination of other oppositional voices from for instance his collegues. You simply buy what he is saying. When it is about the killing of BORN human beings, the least you can do is examine things very carefully.


http://www.independentliving.org/docs7/if20051017.html

"All babies had spina bifida

Why do all cases concern babies with spina bifida? Dr. de Jong says: “I knew that this report was coming up, but when I read it I thought: “What? The 22 described cases were all children with spina bifida! I’ve been treating such new-borns for years and I never had the impression that they were suffering unbearably.” Dr. Erwin Kompanje: “I expected it to be cases of children suffering from severe congenital heart conditions or from trisomy 18 – a complex syndrome involving a lot of suffering. But it only concerned ‘severe cases of spina bifida’. What’s that, what does that mean? That remains completely unclear.”

Pain and suffering of the baby

The argument that the babies are suffering unbearable pain is plainly not correct. Dr. de Jong and Dr. Kompanje monitor many babies with spina bifida and hydrocephalus and know that they do not have pain, and if the baby has pain, it can be easily sedated. Since this is the experience of professionals, they want to build on this by conducting research in pain assessment on babies. Dr. De Jong: “I don’t believe that babies with spina bifida are suffering. I would like to say: show me your pain protocol.” Dr. Kompanje: “Whichever suffering can nearly always be alleviated. We have loads of remedies.”

Quality of life

The simple fact that the baby has spina bifida is not a sufficient reason for ending the life of the baby. Adults with spina bifida state that having an impairment has not prevented them of leading a satisfying life. The quality of life cannot be judged before the life has even started. A disabled child can have a wonderful life, while a perfectly (physical) healthy person can live a miserable life. All of this depends on many other factors, the medical factor being just one of them. The quality of life also depends on the society that allows or does not allow people with disabilities within their midst."

http://www.independentliving.org/docs7/if20051017.html

Originally posted by Halitose
Ha! Give me a day or two. Research is important to not look like an idiot.

Maybe just put a post in to show what you are trying to prove (your intentions). Should be an interesting debate.

Originally posted by no1marauder
I'm sure zeeblebot will spam it with "Touched By A Angel" episodes.

There's no accounting for zeeblebot.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
First of all, stop your usual innuendo and your fantasies about "12 years old being slaughtered". I never claimed such a thing.
I stated that the "Groningen Protocol" was designed for children from birth upto 12 years old.

Secondly, you consume Dr. Verhagen's story without any examination of other oppositional voices from for instance his collegues ...[text shortened]... ith disabilities within their midst."

http://www.independentliving.org/docs7/if20051017.html

Ivanhoe, I am aware what spina bifida is: I have an uncle who has a case of it. In the vast majority of cases, it is not terminal or extreme, so both Dr. Verhagen AND Dr. de Jong are certainly correct. Perhaps if you would examine the actual wording in the articles you would see that there is nothing in either that contradicts the other.

Originally posted by no1marauder
1st paragraph: Ad Hominem without an insult. Ivanhoe please study this carefully as you think the two terms mean the same thing.

Humans are capable of a lot. A society like Nazi Germany which does not believe in the Self-Autonomy of the individual is a dangerous one. The position that the government should make a murderer out of a woman for exe ...[text shortened]... ic right of others and that, my friend, leads logically to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and the rest.

marauder: " You are asserting a very broad power to be asserted by some people over a very basic right of others and that, my friend, leads logically to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and the rest.

Marauder, YOU are the one defending the right to kill other human beings, not your opponents. YOU are denying human beings the most basic human right, the Right to Life. Your opponents defend that Right to Life. What you are doing is turning the world upside down.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Ivanhoe, I am aware what spina bifida is: I have an uncle who has a case of it. In the vast majority of cases, it is not terminal or extreme, so both Dr. Verhagen AND Dr. de Jong are certainly correct. Perhaps if you would examine the actual wording in the articles you would see that there is nothing in either that contradicts the other.

Then why is Dr. de Jong criticising Dr. Verhagen ?

Originally posted by no1marauder
1st paragraph: Ad Hominem without an insult. Ivanhoe please study this carefully as you think the two terms mean the same thing.

Humans are capable of a lot. A society like Nazi Germany which does not believe in the Self-Autonomy of the individual is a dangerous one. The position that the government should make a murderer out of a woman for exe ...[text shortened]... ic right of others and that, my friend, leads logically to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and the rest.

Marauder: " Ivanhoe please study this carefully ... "

You are adressing Halitose, marauder.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Then why is Dr. de Jong criticising Dr. Verhagen ?

This business of "infant euthanasia" is very troubling & worthy of debate. Would you please start a thread in the debates forum? This abortion thread is already too cumbersome for this topic to be adduced.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Then why is Dr. de Jong criticising Dr. Verhagen ?

Ask him. All I'm saying is the two articles are not contradictory. I don't think that dr. de Jong is saying that patients with a large part of the brain and/or spinal cord exposed aren't in pain and I imagine that in the "extreme" cases mentioned the pain would be more "extreme". Without specific descriptions of the actual cases and their severity, I can't say.

Originally posted by Halitose
[b]The only important world organisation I know of who is vehemently protesting against these developments

The UN gave me some hope when it voted against cloning and embryonic stem cell research...but that is a debate for another day and another thread.[/b]

Very important issue !

Originally posted by no1marauder
Ask him. All I'm saying is the two articles are not contradictory. I don't think that dr. de Jong is saying that patients with a large part of the brain and/or spinal cord exposed aren't in pain and I imagine that in the "extreme" cases mentioned the pain would be more "extreme". Without specific descriptions of the actual cases and their severity, I can't say.

You can't say ..... all right.

Maybe you can comment on this claim of yours written down a few posts back.

marauder: ".... There isn't a shred of proof that handicapped children are being euthanized and you know it."