abortion

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]marauder: " You are asserting a very broad power to be asserted by some people over a very basic right of others and that, my friend, leads logically to Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot and the rest.

Marauder, YOU are the one defending the right to kill other human beings, not your opponents. YOU are denying human beings the most basic human right, the Rig ...[text shortened]... . Your opponents defend that Right to Life. What you are doing is turning the world upside down.[/b]

Human Beings by your definition, not by any historical or legal one. And entities that are wholly contained within a woman's body like the germs that cause bad breath or a tapeworm. My opponents deny a woman's autonomy over the things in her own body and regard her as a mere carrying case for a fetus.

You are asserting a governmental power to compel a woman to have to bring a pregnancy to term even though she doesn't wish to. That sort of vast, arbitrary power is typical of the claims of totalitarian states over an individual's freedom. Like the death penalty, it is an assertion of state power over the most basic rights of the individual. YOU are trying to suppress human freedom and enhance state power. Did the 20th Century teach you nothing, Ivanhoe?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
You can't say ..... all right.

Maybe you can comment on this claim of yours written down a few posts back.

[b]marauder: ".... There isn't a shred of proof that handicapped children are being euthanized and you know it."[/b]

I stand by the statement. The cases mentioned are not merely "handicapped" as you stated, but according to dr. Verhagen, terminal cases suffering in extreme pain which the parents consented to end their suffering. Not the same as killing a handicapped child for eugenics purposes, which is what you were suggesting.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
This business of "infant euthanasia" is very troubling & worthy of debate. Would you please start a thread in the debates forum? This abortion thread is already too cumbersome for this topic to be adduced.

There isn't much left to debate. Marauder will have to admit that there is indeed evidence, proof, that handicapped BORN children are being killed, euthanised, in the Netherlands.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
There isn't much left to debate. Marauder will have to admit that there is indeed evidence, proof, that handicapped BORN children are being killed, euthanised, in the Netherlands.

Guess again.

Ivanhoe: In the Netherlands eugenics is not a frightening perspective for the future anymore, but an idea which is allready being practised ..... without any protest from the overall liberal majority I may add.

That's NOT what you presented.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
There isn't much left to debate. Marauder will have to admit that there is indeed evidence, proof, that handicapped BORN children are being killed, euthanised, in the Netherlands.

There's plenty left over. Besides not many people bother to read the spirituality pages, so it should fly in the debates forum.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Guess again.

Marauder, you simply lack any knowledge of the situation. In the Netherlands terminally ill babies are being killed every day. That is not something we find surprising anymore. The fact that handicapped babies are being killed because they are handicapped is, however, still something to raise an eyebrow over in this cynical, liberal society of ours.

I wish you could read Dutch. You would see that Dr. Verhagen either was quoted in a wrong way by the foreign journalists or maybe you would come to the conclusion that Dr. Verhagen is selling this new development under the guise of killing terminally ill patients.

This however, is a mission impossible with you as an opponent. You always manage to turn and twist things in such a way, you can say you were right. As I said before, this, scoring points, is indeed what you are interested in. You're not interested in the truth.

You take the points, I'll take the truth.

Originally posted by no1marauder
Guess again.

Ivanhoe: In the Netherlands eugenics is not a frightening perspective for the future anymore, but an idea which is allready being practised ..... without any protest from the overall liberal majority I may add.

That's NOT what you presented.

Marauder, you still want to go on bickering when you have clearly lost your usual game ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
In the Netherlands terminally ill babies are being killed every day

The BBC links (perhaps out of date) stated 24 have been killed so far.

Ivanhoe if you're interested in getting the truth out there instead of continuing your one-on-one with no1marauder, please put it in the debates forum, with a good link to start everything off. You can quote / translate from Dutch ones too...

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
The BBC links (perhaps out of date) stated 24 have been killed so far.

These 24 were not being killed because they were "terminally ill". If they were, there wouldn't be any upheaval at all in the Netherlands. Killing terminally ill babies is normal practise in the Netherlands. Because Dr. Verhagen seems to be claiming in foreign news media these babies were terminally ill is another interesting chapter in this sad story.

The truth is that 24 cases of infanticide have been reported. The true number of infanticides is not known. There are no official statistics on this issue because infanticide is (still) illegal.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
The BBC links (perhaps out of date) stated 24 have been killed so far.

Ivanhoe if you're interested in getting the truth out there instead of continuing your one-on-one with no1marauder, please put it in the debates forum, with a good link to start everything off. You can quote / translate from Dutch ones too...

I'm not interested in yet another pissing match with the marauder.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I'm not interested in yet another pissing match with the marauder.

All you have to do is ignore him...or start the ball rolling and step back. I'm sure Lord of the Chessboard would pick up the baton (he's Dutch, very anti-abortion).

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
All you have to do is ignore him...or start the ball rolling and step back. I'm sure Lord of the Chessboard would pick up the baton (he's Dutch, very anti-abortion).

Maybe the LotCB knows about the issue we are talking about. He can open a new thread if he wants to. I'm all ears .... 😛

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
All you have to do is ignore him...or start the ball rolling and step back. I'm sure Lord of the Chessboard would pick up the baton (he's Dutch, very anti-abortion).

One of his tactics to entangle someone in his bickerings is to seriously accuse someone of something important. You can either let it go or contradict the accusation. The problem is that too many people pick up this accusation and take it for a fact. Some are very eager in this respect.

This time I decided to contradict his accusations and produce the necessary evidence to back up my claims. Of course he doesn't accept any evidence and tries to wriggle his way out of it by slightly changing what he has been saying or adding new accusations and innuendo. Well, as I said. He can have the points, I'll take the truth.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
Maybe the LotCB knows about the issue we are talking about. He can open a new thread if he wants to. I'm all ears .... 😛

As far as I know all you say is true except that handicaped born children are being euthanised. I have never heard about this before...

Originally posted by LemonJello
[b]The anti-abortionists and even those who argue about the "personhood" of the fetus have made her wants, wishes and desires completely irrelevant.

The whole point of discussing personhood is to determine the "status of the fetus." The whole point of determing the status of the fetus is to determine where the rights of the fetus (and consequ ...[text shortened]... y[/i] because that is what they have been brainwashed/programmed to believe without good reason.[/b]

the only ones here who are completely disregarding/disallowing/ignoring the rights of the woman are the ones who keep insisting that personhood begins at conception merely because that is what they have been brainwashed/programmed to believe without good reason.

No, it is people like you who are brainwashed to think without good reason that the absence of personhood in a living being gives you the right to intentionaly kill it.