"atheism is a belief"

Originally posted by KellyJay
With respect to August I believe kudos should go to googlefudge and Ghost of a Duke.
I know my point of view has not been to their liking, but to their credit, they have been
most agreeable as they disagree with me! I also feel I was pushing the insult button, not
meaning too, but they still were great in their debate.

I'll read the rest of your post a little later, I just wanted to say that.

Any chance you could show the same respect give you, to either twhitehead, FMF or myself? Maybe just one of us...?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do think we are looking at the same data and disagreeing the reasons, which can be like
looking at a movie and both walking away with one liking it the other not so much. 🙂

Either way, kudos I know you have held back with me and I am thankful for your restraint.

Well thankyou, but I haven't been holding back, in the sense of stopping myself insulting you or anything.

That was me strait up, no restraint added.


As you can probably tell I'm not holding back with people this month.

It's simply that my feeling [rightly or wrongly] from you is you are genuinely discussing these issues, but
I/we just cannot seem to find a point of connection which allows communication.

Which I tend to regard as a fault on my part, which is why I keep trying.

Originally posted by googlefudge
I agree with you [kinda] and your metaphor of putting on glasses to see the world.


Where we disagree is in what those glasses are.

You are claiming that for atheists/myself those glasses are [or include] atheism as part of what
defines and shapes what and how we see the world.

What I/we are trying to say is that this is not true.

Atheism ...[text shortened]... part of the glasses I/we wear, it is one of the things we see through the glasses
we do wear.

I guess if you see my point of view and disagree with it, it is as much as I can hope for.
Thanks for the discussion.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Well thankyou, but I haven't been holding back, in the sense of stopping myself insulting you or anything.

That was me strait up, no restraint added.


As you can probably tell I'm not holding back with people this month.

It's simply that my feeling [rightly or wrongly] from you is you are genuinely discussing these issues, but
I/we just canno ...[text shortened]... lows communication.

Which I tend to regard as a fault on my part, which is why I keep trying.

🙂 I wish I could say that, I have stopped myself more than once on getting personal.
I didn't realize how often I think like that. This has been a good month for me and the log
in my own eyes so to speak.

Originally posted by KellyJay
This is the heart of the issue in my opinion. We view things differently, as I have been
trying to point out. As a Christian now I see God's hand in the universe, before didn't look
for it, and I was living my life without God, I didn't care. That absence of belief about God,
or out right rejection made the universe look different than it does now to me, ...[text shortened]... re isn't one without God it would have made
me think about something I wasn't taking seriously.

I never gave a thought to how it all started while I wasn't a believer in God, but I do not think I would have accepted everything from nothing. That one I think I would have
just ignored since it demands an answer there isn't one without God it would have made me think about something I wasn't taking seriously.

I remember the first time I responded to one of your messages (Science Forum). It took me a moment to understand what you were saying (someone asked if you were drunk) but I believe you were referring to what is called First Cause. Nothing can only be the first cause of nothing, which means it isn't a first cause for anything... LoL I don't know why that makes me laugh, but it does.

Ya won't get something from nothing... nope, it can't happen.

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Just a quick note here: I'll be switching over to (only) using a tablet in a day or two, so I won't be able to respond to everything I would normally be responding to... and someone else will have to feed the trolls.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Ya won't get something from nothing... nope, it can't happen.

You evidently know nothing of modern day physics.

We observe and predict things coming from nothing all the time.

And we have theoretical frameworks that are entirely possible given current knowledge that
say that the entire universe could indeed come from absolutely nothing.

That's not to say that they are right, they may or may not be.

It IS to say that you cannot truthfully assert that it is impossible for something to come from nothing.
As with our present state of knowledge, not only is that not known to be true, it's much less likely than
the alternative.

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]I never gave a thought to how it all started while I wasn't a believer in God, but I do not think I would have accepted everything from nothing. That one I think I would have
just ignored since it demands an answer there isn't one without God it would have made me think about something I wasn't taking seriously.

I remember the first time I resp ...[text shortened]... o everything I would normally be responding to... and someone else will have to feed the trolls.[/b]

LOL well I've been here over ten years...and we do tend to touch the same subjects from
time to time. I remember saying that. 😉

Originally posted by googlefudge
You evidently know nothing of modern day physics.

We observe and predict things coming from nothing all the time.

And we have theoretical frameworks that are entirely possible given current knowledge that
say that the entire universe could indeed come from absolutely nothing.

That's not to say that they are right, they may or may not be.

It ...[text shortened]... knowledge, not only is that not known to be true, it's much less likely than
the alternative.

I doubt that is what is actually going on, I'd tend to accept we are seeing something
coming from something else we are not able to grasp yet. Nothing is just that nothing,
there isn't anything within that which could change to promote anything new, if there
were something in it, it would not be nothing.

Originally posted by KellyJay
LOL well I've been here over ten years...and we do tend to touch the same subjects from
time to time. I remember saying that. 😉

I haven't been here nearly that long, so it's relatively easy for me to remember first encounters...

(of the second kind?)

Originally posted by lemon lime
I haven't been here nearly that long, so it's relatively easy for me to remember first encounters...

(of the second kind?)

“First encounters . . . of the second kind.” Nicely done! 🙂

Originally posted by KellyJay

Your influenced by your life experiences, the choices you make, what makes you look at
the world the way you do will always be something internal to you. If that were not true
than everyone would see the same things, the same way, while all looking at the same
things.

Absolutely.

I'm glad we agree that my atheism doesn't come into it. It's my choices and life experiences that influence me. (Not things i don't believe in).

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Absolutely.

I'm glad we agree that my atheism doesn't come into it. It's my choices and life experiences that influence me. (Not things i don't believe in).

🙁 You are the person you are, you bring the full package to everything you do.
What you are and what you are not, all come into play, it is unavoidable.
Like the old saying no matter where you are, there you are.
I think we have been around the block with this, if I have not made myself clear I never
will, and if your complaints have not won me over they never will.
We can disagree and move on.

Originally posted by vistesd
“First encounters . . . of the second kind.” Nicely done! 🙂

ROFL

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Hmm, how to explain.

I am a man with many hats. My 'atheist hat' is only put on when i discuss whether or not i think God exists. (Which these days only really happens on this site). I also have a 'Lochness Monster hat' which i (rarely) put on when discussing whether or not the creature really exists. - My point is that these hats have no function or ...[text shortened]... at to say 'there is no God' and then quick as larry the hat is off my head and shoved in the drawer.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke (Page 3)
"Thanks for the clarity of your position. I think where we differ, is that i only relate my atheism to a disbelief in God...."

We agree. My reply on page two simply stated the fact that "We all share belief or faith as a third mean of perception based on confidence in the authority of someone whose veracity we explicitly trust [a parent, teacher, coach, law emforcement or military officer, surgeon, attorney. or God Himself]. Atheists believe but not in God."
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Okay. I like your "hats" as a metaphor. Would agree with the "fact that "We all share belief or faith as a third mean of perception based on confidence in the authority of someone whose veracity we explicitly trust..." with reference to our perceptions within the secular realm?

And when you say: "I only put on my atheist hat to say 'there is no God' and then quick as larry the hat is off my head and shoved in the drawer." does your "atheist hat" ever question its own absolute authority?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
We all share belief or faith as a third mean of perception...

I seem to recall that your notion of "faith perception" got completely dismantled when you trotted it out here in the past. Did that debate/discussion modify your opinion on the matter at all?