31 Dec 21
@medullah saidIn this matter since I have no personal experience of the JWs, I have to go by what people who do actually have the experience say about the matter of shunning. There are literally thousands of these reports.
It's not actually
So lets talk around adultery as the model
Lets suppose somebody in a marriage goes outside of it and confesses. The wronged partner always has the option to forgive (probably encouraged to). The sinner gets told how naughty they have been and life moves. Nobody else gets involved othe than elders and nobody gets told what has gone on. That is complete ...[text shortened]... on't know the procedure other than there would be a divorce - you'd have to run that past Galveston.
Here is one by the BBC
For some former Jehovah's Witnesses, leaving the faith is not just the mark of losing your religion - it can also mean losing your loved ones. In many cases, friends and family are told to cut all ties with ex-believers, leaving them isolated and sometimes suicidal. "I don't speak to any of my family," Sarah - not her real name - tells the BBC's Victoria Derbyshire programme. "Because of being 'disfellowshipped', I can have no contact."
Last year, Sarah - in her 20s - was excluded by the Jehovah's Witnesses in a process known as "disfellowshipping", she says sparked by her refusal to live in an abusive relationship. She claims her partner at the time had been violent towards her, at one stage leaving her with broken ribs.
'Remove the wicked'
Going to the police - and involving those from outside the religion - is heavily discouraged by Jehovah's Witnesses, she says, claiming that elders within the faith refused to punish her ex-partner's behaviour. It was only when work colleagues noticed the bruising, and convinced her not to put up with the abuse, that she says she fled the relationship.
Sarah claims she was consequently disfellowshipped by the religion, and that her friends and family cut all ties with her. This is because Jehovah's Witnesses believe those outside the religion can be of detriment to their faith.
In a statement the religious group told the BBC: "If a baptised Witness makes a practice of breaking the Bible's moral code, and does not given evidence of stopping the practice, he or she will be shunned or disfellowshipped.
"When it comes to shunning, Witnesses take their instructions from the Bible and on this subject the Bible clearly states, 'Remove the wicked man from amongst yourselves.'" The night she was disfellowshipped, Sarah says her mother refused to talk to her. Her father woke her up at 07:00 to kick her out of their home. Responding to Sarah's claims, the Jehovah's Witnesses said that while it could not comment on individual cases, "violence, whether physical or emotional, is strongly condemned in the Bible and has no place in a Christian family".
Sarah and John
Sarah and John (front of shot) told Victoria Derbyshire they had been shunned by their family and friends John - not his real name - became a Jehovah's Witness as a young child when his parents decided to join the religious group.
But two years ago, he was disfellowshipped after he missed a Jehovah's Witness memorial service - seen in the religion as an important event. He had also begun to privately have doubts about some of the religion's teachings - questioning the faith's assertion that the end of the world is imminent, and that only 144,000 human beings will go to heaven.
His view on the religion was also tarnished after ones of his friends died, when a blood transfusion - which is not allowed in the faith - might have saved him.
"It was a waste of a life," he says. John says he later discovered his wife had testified against him during the process that led to his disfellowship, which he believes placed a great strain on their relationship. He left the family home - living temporarily in tents and caravans.
"It was a very isolating time. I didn't have anyone, I felt quite suicidal," he says.
He has now lost contact with his two adult children and siblings. "Sometimes I send them a message saying, 'I love you, I'm still thinking of you.' But usually there's no response," he says.
Terri O'Sullivan
Terri O'Sullivan was kicked out of her home by her mother
According to the Jehovah's Witnesses, the faith has more than 138,000 members in the UK, and more than eight million internationally. Terri O'Sullivan left the religion 17 years ago, aged 21, and was kicked out of her home by her mother.
She now runs a support network for those who leave or are excluded from it.
She says she is yet to find a former Jehovah's Witness who has not experienced depression, alcoholism, suicidal feelings or self-harm. She adds that while not everyone goes through a formal disfellowship when they leave, their relationships seldom go on unaffected. "With some ex-Witnesses," she says, "some of their families will still talk to them - but it will always be strained."
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40704990
@Rajk999
Please note. If I don't volunteer personal information then I won't be answering questions of a personal nature, as this is as I have said, personal.
So this BBC report goes back to 2017 covering incidents two years prior (2015).
I do have first hand knowledge of this procedure, as I had it done to me 25 years ago (yes I am a terrible rotten sinner, and was cast out.) I wasn't shunned by my family, though I did lose all of my friends in the organisation.
Case 1 Sarah
The terminology is correct "disfellowshipping". You don't get disfellowshipped purely for walking out on a marriage (I did it, which is how I know). There is even scriptual provision for this situation where you can. Something must be missing from the account.
I used to know a lot of guys in the organisation with daughters. I don't know of a single one that would have kicked their child out at seven in the morning under these circumstances. Quite frankly I don't believe what I am being offered up. We are getting a selectively edited account.
Case 2 John
You can't (couldn't) get kicked out for missing a memorial, it's not an offence per say. That looks to me like the cover story. Again something missing. Just think this through. There is a kingdom hall full of JWs and John is missing. Why would his wife need to testify that he was missing if it has been clear to the whole congregation that he wasn't there anyway? Doesn't make sense.
Case 3 Terri
Nothing to go on a total lack of detail. For all we know she could have been caught dealing in a drugs, I don't know.
This kind of journalism is pretty typical of the BBC. I don't have to scrape the bottom of the barrel (2017, are you kidding me?) to demonstrate this. Here is a piece from s more recent time period - 30th December 2021
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-59828961
It covers the Ghislane Maxwell trial where the BBC admit to breaking editorial standards (have a good look and read it through) , which is what I think they did in the 2107 as they were going for a story, not necessarily the truth.
01 Jan 22
@medullah saidWell I get what you are saying but its kinda hard to ignore or explain away, the thousands of such reports floating around. Although I have no personal experience with the JWs, I have seen how friends with JW family members behave. I had a friend who celebrated his 50th birthday invited a few friends and his JW wife just sat around in the bedroom refusing to come out. Their doctrine is full of petty trivial rules most of which are not in the bible. It is a nonsense religion and it has contributed to destroying family life
@Rajk999
Please note. If I don't volunteer personal information then I won't be answering questions of a personal nature, as this is as I have said, personal.
So this BBC report goes back to 2017 covering incidents two years prior (2015).
I do have first hand knowledge of this procedure, as I had it done to me 25 years ago (yes I am a terrible rotten sinner, and ...[text shortened]... hich is what I think they did in the 2107 as they were going for a story, not necessarily the truth.
01 Jan 22
@medullah saidI dont think so. I have had discussions with JWs on this site and outside as well and it is a JW rule that no birthdays or Christmas and others as well be celebrated. Of course she shoul dnot behave like that, but cult members cannot tell the difference between what is normal and crazy behavior
@Rajk999
That stuff with your friend isn’t JW rules - that’s his wife throwing a paddy. She shouldn’t behave like that in my opinion.
@rajk999 saidThey don’t as a rule. However it is a matter of conscience. So my Nan was a jw and my grandfather wasn’t. When the family came round at Xmas she was personable and social, although she wouldn’t accept presents (in theory) but my dad always got her one or got something that he gave as combined present to them as a pair. Before I was disfellowshipped (so I was in the reverse position to that if your friend) if my wife’s parents invited us over at Xmas we went, I didn’t make big deal of it. The believing partner has two choices; they can be a total pain in the arse or they can use a bit of common sense and have a bit of emotional intelligence towards their partner.
I dont think so. I have had discussions with JWs on this site and outside as well and it is a JW rule that no birthdays or Christmas and others as well be celebrated. Of course she shoul dnot behave like that, but cult members cannot tell the difference between what is normal and crazy behavior
02 Jan 22
@medullah saidWell you are saying the same thing Im saying. It is taught in the JW church that birthdays are not to be celebrated. This is NOT IN THE BIBLE. Then why are they putting a strain on family relationships.
They don’t as a rule. However it is a matter of conscience. So my Nan was a jw and my grandfather wasn’t. When the family came round at Xmas she was personable and social, although she wouldn’t accept presents (in theory) but my dad always got her one or got something that he gave as combined present to them as a pair. Before I was disfellowshipped (so I was in the reverse p ...[text shortened]... r they can use a bit of common sense and have a bit of emotional intelligence towards their partner.
Churches should bring families together not drive a wedge between them.
04 Jan 22
@medullah saidHi. OK we are back home from a much needed vacation from work. And it was good to visit my old home. Just wish it had been warmer. Lol.
They don’t as a rule. However it is a matter of conscience. So my Nan was a jw and my grandfather wasn’t. When the family came round at Xmas she was personable and social, although she wouldn’t accept presents (in theory) but my dad always got her one or got something that he gave as combined present to them as a pair. Before I was disfellowshipped (so I was in the reverse p ...[text shortened]... r they can use a bit of common sense and have a bit of emotional intelligence towards their partner.
So just letting you know that this subject has been gone over time and time again with Rajk. He is presenting the same old material that he brings up almost yearly. Everything that can be explained to him has been explained so I will not bring back this dead subject. He has no desire to listen why ones are disfellowshiped and see why this biblical command is followed by the Witnesses.
Disfellowshipping is not something that the Elders ever, ever enjoy as Rajk seems to emply. But the elders are responsible to follow the very clear guidelines in the Bible, God's bible, to keep the congregations clean from ones who (practice) a sinful action or show (NO) remorse if exposed.
No, no one is just automatically disfellowshipped because of ones action.
If one is disfellowshipped it is because this was probably not the first time a serious sin this person was involved in or no remorse had been shown afterwards.
Sometimes more then one meeting with this person is held in just trying to get facts straight because the elders know they answer to Jehovah.
Rajk seems to feel their is a large amount of some type of cruelty or even satisfaction in disfellowshippng someone. That is so far from the truth. If an elder or elders are suspect of this they can themselves be removed or even disfellowshipped.
If the person that is going to be disfellowshipped deeply feels this is a wrong decision, they can request another meeting to explain their case, so to say, with another completely different set of elders from another congregation that is not involved with this case at all.
My father was an elder for decades and had to be involved with many such meetings. There were many times I saw him come home from those meetings and brake down in tears because he was involved in a decision to have to disfellowship someone that maybe had been a personal friend of his in the congregation. But because of a serious sin from someone who maybe showed no remorse and would still be a threat to the congregation if they were allowed to freely associate with the congregation, they would need to be disfellowshipped for a time, not forever, if they showed true remorse. But as hard as that could be on any of the elders and others in the congregation, sometimes it has to be done.
Sometimes a person was a personal friend of my father. His tears were not from hating to be an elder but from maybe loosing a personal friend if that person did not end what got them in trouble to begin with.
This is a command that is clearly explained in the Bible.
But this is clearly ignored by the churches today. If the churches today actually followed God's commands to remove ones who ((((( practice sin )))) in their life's, they know they would have much smaller congregations and would now be looked down on by the general public by not following the worlds modern views of sin and morals. Almost anything goes now and many churches look the other way with what their members might practice.
So I'm sure as usual he will still attack the bibles views and commands on disfellowshipping that we follow.
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He is presenting the same old material that he brings up almost yearly. Everything that can be explained to him has been explained so I will not bring back this dead subject.
With this I would agree. But, how far behind him are you in similarity?
Maybe{i] everything [/i] has not been said, but the essential things have.
You cannot demote Christ from God incarnate to one of His archangels because you do not want this man to reign over you.
He is worthy. He is the Lamb who poured out His blood to save us.
The universal praise is ewually to the One on the throne and to the Lamb.
EQUAL. All creation and the angels worship in Rev. 5.
"Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb who has been slain to receive the power and triches and wisdom and strength and honor and glory and blessing.
And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea and all things in them, I heard saying,
To Him who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb be the blessing and the honor and the glory and the might forever and ever.
And the four living creatures said, Amen. And the elders fell down and worshipped." (Rev. 5:12-14)
Are you hoping Jehovah will put the Lamb out of the picture so you don't have to worship God and the Lamb ? The Lamb is God reaching down to you and enabling Him to send His Spirit into you. Receive the Lord Jesus and you won't believe how happy Jehovah will be.
04 Jan 22
@galveston75 saidYou going over a topic again and again just means that you have failed to justify your point. When it comes up again you will make the same stupid response. This is not about you or your father. It is about destroying people and families as reported by thousands of people.
So just letting you know that this subject has been gone over time and time again with Rajk. He is presenting the same old material that he brings up almost yearly.
You have neither the ability nor the objectivity to understand.
04 Jan 22
@galveston75 saidWell lets prove that.
So I'm sure as usual he will still attack the bibles views and commands on disfellowshipping that we follow.
Give me the bible views on disfellowshipping
Give me a couple cases where the JWs followed the bibles views..
Lets see
04 Jan 22
@rajk999 saidI don't have to waist my time showing you over and over every scripture there is proving to you what the bible says. That has been done more times then I can count. So maybe you are the one with stupid responses. You don't listen or you don't have the capacity to understand what is in black and white in YOUR bible.
Well lets prove that.
Give me the bible views on disfellowshipping
Give me a couple cases where the JWs followed the bibles views..
Lets see
04 Jan 22
@galveston75 saidFigures. You are hopeless failure. In your last post I said not a single word about elders enjoying shunning or disfellowshipping and yet your entire post was about that.
I don't have to waist my time showing you over and over every scripture there is proving to you what the bible says. That has been done more times then I can count. So maybe you are the one with stupid responses. You don't listen or you don't have the capacity to understand what is in black and white in YOUR bible.
What the hell is wrong with you people.