Believers, Non-Believers & Morality

Originally posted by @thinkofone
I wasn't speaking of his behavior - though that's abhorrent in and of itself - I was speaking of his beliefs as well as those who hold similar beliefs such as the "religious right".

Your admiration of him speaks volumes and shows that you don't understand what Jesus was saying in the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere

Be specific. What are his beliefs and those of the “religious right” that you object to?

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Okay Mr. Pedantic, replace 'I have no notion of divine law' with 'I am not governed by the notion of divine law.' (Notion was your word. 'Belief' would have been better).

Here's the question again that you deflected:

Unless you think a person's conscience is governed by personal preference? (As opposed to the way they were brought up).

You used the word “notion.” Here is your exact quote:

“I have no notion of divine law but that doesn't mean my morality is a personal preference. Far from it.”

That was the quote from you that I responded to.

Originally posted by @romans1009
Be specific. What are his beliefs and those of the “religious right” that you object to?

For one, not ensuring that basics are provided to the less fortunate: food, clothing, shelter, health care, etc.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
For one, not ensuring that basics are provided to the less fortunate: food, clothing, shelter, health care, etc.

Basics are provided. What are you talking about?

Originally posted by @romans1009
Basics are provided. What are you talking about?

You seriously don't know that there are many who either don't have or struggle to provide basics such as food, clothing, shelter, health care, etc. for themselves and their families?

Originally posted by @fmf
What can non-believers ~ and contemporary secular society more broadly ~ learn about morality from religious people and religious institutions once the notions of everlasting life, divine law and "sin" are taken out of the equation?

Religion, or lack thereof, is a poor predictor of moral behavior. Religion can be made to justify almost any behavior; it is more malleable than most of its adherents realize.

What we can learn from is specific religious people, as well as institutions, whose faith motivates them to do good - those that are kind, compassionate, helpful, respectful, etc. We can also learn what to avoid from those religious folk who are overly critical, judgmental, bigoted, racist, elitist, avaricious, etc.

The same goes for secular folk - change 'faith' to 'lack of faith' or even 'secular values'.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
You seriously don't know that there are many who either don't have or struggle to provide basics such as food, clothing, shelter, health care, etc. for themselves and their families?

Certainly there are those who struggle to provide basics for their family and it’s been that way for centuries. But that wasn’t your point.

Originally posted by @romans1009
Certainly there are those who struggle to provide basics for their family and it’s been that way for centuries. But that wasn’t your point.

The point was that basics such as food, clothing, shelter, health care, etc. are not provided to every man woman and child in the US - which you pretended not to know about.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
The point was that basics such as food, clothing, shelter, health care, etc. are not provided to every man woman and child in the US - which you pretended not to know about.

They certainly are provided via homeless shelters and housing vouchers, food stamps and soup kitchens, Medicare and Medicaid, emergency rooms at hospitals, etc.

Are those ideal? Of course not. But to say the indigent in America don’t have access to food, shelter and medical care is false.

Originally posted by @romans1009
They certainly are provided via homeless shelters and housing vouchers, food stamps and soup kitchens, Medicare and Medicaid, emergency rooms at hospitals, etc.

Are those ideal? Of course not. But to say the indigent in America don’t have access to food, shelter and medical care is false.

What I actually wrote was, "...not ensuring that basics are provided to the less fortunate: food, clothing, shelter, health care, etc.".

If those things were being provided to every man, woman and child there wouldn't be any who do without any of those things. Yet there are many. If they loved their neighbor as they loved themselves, they would ensure that that never happens. The US has more than enough resources to make it a reality. The only thing stopping it is greed. Trump and his ilk have shown themselves to be much more interested in helping the wealthy get wealthier instead of help those without. They would also do whatever it takes to raise the standard of education in less affluent areas, pay a living wage, etc.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
What I actually wrote was, "...not ensuring that basics are provided to the less fortunate: food, clothing, shelter, health care, etc.".

If those things were being provided to every man, woman and child there wouldn't be any who do without any of those things. Yet there are many. If they loved their neighbor as they loved themselves, they would ensure ...[text shortened]... ever it takes to raise the standard of education in less affluent areas, pay a living wage, etc.

And you think these problems you mention originated in January 2017? For how many years prior to President Trump did these problems not only exist but continue to get worse?

Do you really think government is the best vehicle to help the poor? Do you contribute money to non-profits that help the poor?

Originally posted by @romans1009... the Bible is ... the source of wisdom and eternal truths.

It may be a collection of wisdom and truths, but is definitely not the source of those things. I know this because wisdom and truth can be found elsewhere too.

Originally posted by @romans1009
And you think these problems you mention originated in January 2017? For how many years prior to President Trump did these problems not only exist but continue to get worse?

Do you really think government is the best vehicle to help the poor? Do you contribute money to non-profits that help the poor?

The fact is that the non-profits can't get it done. If they could, they would have by now.

For those who love their neighbors as they love themselves, they support politicians who are the most likely to support those without. Trump and his ilk have shown themselves to be much more interested in helping the wealthy get wealthier. Their beliefs are antithetical to what Jesus was saying in the Sermon on the Mount and elsewhere.

Originally posted by @thinkofone
The fact is that the non-profits can't get it done. If they could, they would have by now. ...

The need for charity doesn't disappear because there is charity!

Originally posted by @apathist
The need for charity doesn't disappear because there is charity!

Not sure what point you're trying to make and how this relates to my post. Can you elaborate?