Believers, Non-Believers & Morality

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
With your use of an emoticon, I'm assuming that's a joke, but even so, I don't know why you are making an issue out of this.

I responded to your post that used the word 'notion' and wrongly said to Roman's that you had introduced the word. When it was pointed out that FMF had used it first in his OP I confirmed this for myself and responded, 'yes you're right.'

Nobody lied.

An untruth is a lie regardless of how you try to sugarcoat it.

Originally posted by @fmf
A "lie" - the word you have used inaccurately - according to the same https://www.merriam-webster.com website you referred to - is "an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive".

That is one use of the word yes, the other use (the one I quoted) is from the same dictionary. So are you going to accept one use of the word and reject the other from the same dictionary? 🙄

Originally posted by @dj2becker
That is one use of the word yes, the other use (the one I quoted) is from the same dictionary. So are you going to accept one use of the word and reject the other from the same dictionary? 🙄

The word "lie" implies an intent to deceive or mislead and does not include misspeaking and inadvertent errors.

Originally posted by @fmf
The word "lie" implies an intent to deceive or mislead and does not include misspeaking and inadvertent errors.

Definition of lie
1 a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive He told a lie to avoid punishment.
b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer the lies we tell ourselves to feel better historical records containing numerous lies

According to b it is still a lie even if the intention is not to deceive.

Originally posted by @dj2becker

Definition of lie
1 a : an assertion of something known or believed by the speaker or writer to be untrue with intent to deceive He told a lie to avoid punishment.
b : an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer the lies we tell ourselves to feel better historical records containing numerous lies

According to b it is still a lie even if the intention is not to deceive.

an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer

That is a poorly written definition of the word "lie". It could only perhaps apply if the speaker or writer [in the definition] claimed to know for sure that the statement was verified as true when in fact he did not know this to be so. For a false statement to be a "lie", there has to be an intent to deceive.

Originally posted by @fmf
[b]an untrue or inaccurate statement that may or may not be believed true by the speaker or writer

That is a poorly written definition of the word "lie". It could only perhaps apply if the speaker or writer [in the definition] claimed to know for sure that the statement was verified as true when in fact he did not know this to be so. For a false statement to be a "lie", there has to be an intent to deceive.[/b]

1. How on earth could the speaker intentionally deceive his audience if he did not know whether or not the information was true? 🙄

2. How on earth would you ever be able to prove anyone a liar if you can't know what their intention was?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
How on earth could the speaker intentionally deceive his audience if he did not know whether or not the information was true? 🙄

If the speaker knowingly claimed that he knew for sure that something was true - when in fact he didn't know for sure or couldn't know for sure, then that would be misleading and, being intentional, and not being accidental, it would therefore would be covered by the word "lie".

Originally posted by @fmf
If the speaker knowingly claimed that he knew for sure that something was true - when in fact he didn't know for sure or couldn't know for sure, then that would be misleading and, being intentional, and not being accidental, it would therefore would be covered by the word "lie".

How on earth could you ever prove that someone didn't know something for sure? For example, how could you ever prove that Ghost wasn't aware of the fact that you used the word before I did? According to your definition it would be impossible to prove anyone a liar because they could simply claim they believed the lie was true.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
How on earth would you ever be able to prove anyone a liar if you can't know what their intention was?

Sometimes liars are exposed and sometimes liars get away with it. In criminal cases and tribunals, lies - and the intentions of liars - are exposed all the time. Other times, in ordinary adult discourse, we just take the measure of each other and each other's intentions, and we weight whether or not our interlocutors are being honest, as I have done with Roman1009 on this thread and as I am now doing with you.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
How on earth could you ever prove that someone didn't know something for sure? For example, how could you ever prove that Ghost wasn't aware of the fact that you used the word before I did?

Why would either of us have to "prove" such a thing in this case given the nature of the error and the reaction of the person who made the error once it was pointed out to him?

Originally posted by @fmf
Sometimes liars are exposed and sometimes liars get away with it. In criminal cases and tribunals, lies - and the intentions of liars - are exposed all the time. Other times, in ordinary adult discourse, we just take the measure of each other and each other's intentions, and we weight whether or not our interlocutors are being honest, as I have done with Roman1009 on this thread and as I am now doing with you.

According to your definition how would it be possible to prove that someone is a liar if they claimed to believe the lie was the truth?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
According to your definition it would be impossible to prove anyone a liar because they could simply claim they believed the lie was true.

Good luck navigating your way through adult life.

Originally posted by @fmf
Good luck navigating your way through adult life.

I guess that's why you can convince yourself to believe a lie and if you then keep on telling the lie you're not a liar because you have convinced yourself that it is true. Some great insight into the the adult life of FMF.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
I guess that's why you can convince yourself to believe a lie and if you then keep on telling the lie you're not a liar because you have convinced yourself that it is true. Some great insight into the the adult life of FMF.

What "lie" do you think I am telling?

Originally posted by @fmf
What "lie" do you think I am telling?

Hold on old chap. When did I say you were lying?