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Please don’t write anything more about the justification for one church in one locality. I know your reasoning backwards.
No, I think I will write something as I feel the need to do so.
"Please don't write because I know everything" doesnt intimidate me.
The crucial point is that we cannot turn the clock back 2000 years to where we have a clean slate - no churches.
The New Testament speaks of plural "churches".
While you have the freedom of conscience to believe churches cannot exist, we exercise our freedom of conscience to believe churches can still exist.
This is the fertile ground in which small gatherings in homes can flourish and the Body can come about in practicality.
Of course, then one would form, and cultivate, only one church in each locality.
Christians have the freedom of conscience to believe that we must be divided into denominations. They have freedom to assume that it is impossible to have what the apostles established in Corinth, Philippi, Thessalonia, etc. some of us exercise freedom of conscience we can have this is Pretoria, Dallas, Accra, Mexico City, etc. in many localities on the earth.
You have all freedom to say "Impossible!" But some of us can cry out to the Lord for recovery without feeling the cry is wrong.
But just open your eyes and see the reality of the 20th century, when WL operated. You cannot wish away the current groups of believers, nor can you be so naive or arrogant as to require that all the faithful saints in whatever groups they find themselves, should now resign and join YOUR “new and improved” denomination.
I do not wish away the folds where God is often faithful to provide help for His people. But I want to come to the flock. The folds will continue until Christ returns for the early rapture.
The state of Christians under the reign of Antichrist is not really known now. It may be that we will be forced come out of the ANITY into a oneness of survival. Sooner or latter? Why not sooner?
THAT is the absolute height of cultism.
Some people think the nation of Israel does not exist because there are more Jews and better Jews in Brooklyn New York.
Be faithful to what you see. And allow us to be faithful to what we see. We do not tear down your work. When coming to a meeting of a denomination I observe the rules of their meeting and respect their sense of order.
But I need the unity that the ground of locality brings.
If you can live without it you go ahead and believe recovery is impossible.
Some of us will take this way - "In Spirit, on the ground."
@divegeester saidSonship??
@sonship
Sonship does your church leadership hold the view that the Local Churches organisation is the only true church of Jesus Christ at this time?
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15 Apr 19
@divegeester saidThat surely must be the case, if he adheres to Witness Lee's assertion that other denominations are satanic.
@sonship
Sonship does your church leadership hold the view that the Local Churches organisation is the only true church of Jesus Christ at this time?
15 Apr 19
@sonship saidWrong. You have used the teachings of these people to override the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
@Rajk999
You have elevated the teachings of a man above the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. That says it all about where you have placed this man.
No I have not. I wrote many posts with no mention of either. And I wrote plenty of posts referring to other people.
Of late the concerted attack on these two has resulted in their names being mentio ...[text shortened]... tion [/b] which some posters were quick to cease opportunity to derail and clutter up with protest.
15 Apr 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI suppose we can only assume as sonship seems reluctant (yet again) to answer a simple specific question.
That surely must be the case, if he adheres to Witness Lee's assertion that other denominations are satanic.
I’ll keep trying, perhaps he’s busy fixing his car.
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15 Apr 19
Sonship does your church leadership hold the view that the Local Churches organisation is the only true church of Jesus Christ at this time?
There is no Local Churches organization.
The administration of each church is under the local responsible elders.
About Us
Who Are the Local Churches?
“As is true of all believers in Christ, we are members of His one Body, the church. In order to practice the oneness of the Body of Christ with all Christians, we meet as the church in the city (locality) in which we live. There are over 2,000 local churches worldwide which are in fellowship with one another to express the one Body of Christ.”
from “The Local Churches” Web site
What is Living Stream Ministry?
“Living Stream Ministry publishes the works of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, providing the authoritative and definitive collections of treasures from these two servants of the Lord Jesus Christ. The writings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee focus on the enjoyment of the divine life, which all the believers possess, and on the building up of the church, the goal of God's work with man in this age.”
from “Living Stream Ministry” Web site
https://www.lctestimony.org/
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15 Apr 19
Wrong. You have used the teachings of these people to override the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
You are inept at demonstrating this.
All you can do is assert it.
Your interpretation First Corinthians 3:17 is in error.
Those destroying the temple of God in that verse are not unbelievers according to the context but believers who are attempting to build the temple with inferior materials.
I don't think you understand anything about the building of the church or the temple of God.
Witness Lee's note in the Recovery Version is better than your explanation.
If anyone's work shall consumed, he shall suffer loss, but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.
Do you not know that you are a temple of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you?
If anyone destroys the temple of God, God shall destroy him; for the temple of God is holy, which you are." (1 Cor. 3:15-17)
The holy temple must be built with the things lived out by the Holy Spirit within the believers. If they live out the attributes of the Holy Spirit the temple is built properly. If they do not learn to live by the Holy Spirit within them but continue to live in the old man and the flesh they build the temple with inferior materials.
These inferior materials may be plentiful in quantity but are poor in quality. And at the judgment seat of Christ they will be destroyed. They cannot pass the fiery test of Christs examination.
To be destroyed there is to suffer loss and not be rewarded.
As we see in verse 15 such will still be saved yet so as through fire.
15 Apr 19
@sonship saidWhat interpretation? I gave no interpretation and none is required. Pauls words are crystal clear, neither does Paul need you or Watchman Nee to explain what he means. You are out of place.
@Rajk999
Wrong. You have used the teachings of these people to override the teachings of Christ and the Apostles.
You are inept at demonstrating this.
All you can do is assert it.
Your interpretation First Corinthians 3:17 is in error.
Those destroying the temple of God in that verse are not unbelievers according to the context but belie ...[text shortened]... er loss and not be rewarded.
As we see in verse 15 such will still be saved yet so as through fire.
Paul in 1 Cor 3 identified THREE DISTINCT GROUPS OF CHRISTIAN SAINTS
1. Those who do good works are are rewarded
2. Those who do nothing and are still saved
3. Those who defile themselves and are destroyed.
Paul further states a couple chapters down in similarly clear language [for poor readers like yourself], that Christian saints who continue to sin will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Its clear. It requires no interpretation.
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15 Apr 19
5 edits
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
The Bible says that the whole world lies in the evil one - Satan.
So if the world swallows up the church she is attached to something which is controlled by Satan, in whom the whole world is under his influence.
Leaven in the New Testament stands for corruption. The parable of the woman that hid leaven in the three measures of meal until the whole lump was leavened, was Christ's parable about the corruption of the church.
Another parable He spoke to them; The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened. (Matt. 13:33)
Give your ALTERNATIVE explanation of the meaning of this parable.
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15 Apr 19
What is the lump and what is the leaven?
And what does it mean that the whole lump became leavened?
I'll take the view of many expositors including Witness Lee.
The Kingdom by Witness Lee
In the outward appearance of the kingdom of the heavens, there are not only the tares and the great tree, but there is also something hidden within—the leaven. “Another parable He spoke to them: The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened” (v. 33). In the Scriptures leaven does not have a positive meaning. Rather, it indicates something corrupting and evil. The woman here is a figure of the Roman Catholic Church. In Revelation 17:3 John saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast. That woman is the Roman Catholic Church, and the beast is the Roman Empire. This indicates religion joined to politics. When Christianity became the national religion of the Roman Empire, the church was transmuted from a small mustard herb into a great tree full of evil things.
The woman took the leaven, signifying sinful, evil, and corrupting things, and put it into the fine meal. The fine meal signifies Christ as life in the form of food. The Roman Catholic Church takes the real things of Christ, represented by the meal, and adds false things, represented by the leaven. Among some of the Protestant churches, there are the modernists who do not believe that the Lord Jesus is the Son of God or that He is God or that He was born of a virgin. The Catholic Church does not have this kind of heresy. They do recognize that Christ is the Son of God, even God Himself, and that He was born of a virgin. In this sense they do have the fine meal, but they have added much leaven into the meal, including many heathen teachings, heresies, and pagan things. For example, the birth of Christ may be considered as meal, but Christmas has been added as a kind of leaven. The incarnation of Christ is meal, but Christmas is leaven. Christ is the fine meal, but images and pictures of Christ are leaven. In some believers' homes, I have seen pictures of Christ. Those are not a true likeness of Christ. Those pictures portray Him as a beautiful person. Actually, the Bible says that when the Lord Jesus was on the earth, He had no beauty (Isa. 53:2). Those pictures are leaven.
https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=0826E7D9EA
Now YOU Ghost, are going to give your ALTERNATIVE intepretation which you think is better. I'm interested to hear how you see it .
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15 Apr 19
6 edits
I gave no interpretation and none is required.
Then I take it as it is stated.
Two catagories of believers:
1.) "Saved" and Rewarded
2.) "Saved" as yet as through fire, who "suffer loss" ... (destroyed (v.17) )
To suffer loss is equivalent to "God shall destroy him".
You erroneously assume it means eternal destruction.
It is discipline "but he shall be saved yet so as through fire."
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15 Apr 19
1 edit
Two catagories of believers:
1.) "Saved" and Rewarded
2.) "Saved" as yet as through fire, who "suffer loss" ... (destroyed (v.17) )
To suffer loss is equivalent to "God shall destroy him".
You erroneously assume it means eternal destruction.
It is discipline "but he shall be saved yet so as through fire."
This is Witness Lee's viewpoint.
Someone explain to me why agreeing with it exaults Witness Lee above the Scripture.
Even if it is in error explain how adopting it exalts Witness Lee above Scripture.
Is Rajk999 saying that every instance of a not so accurate exposition of the Scripture is exalting a teacher ABOVE Scripture ?
That is too extreme and is nonsense.
As it stands the interpretation is very good.
Scripture REMAINS exalted above any teacher's interpretation of a passage anyway.
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15 Apr 19
@sonship saidYep, you've tried to sell that snake oil already.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
The Bible says that the whole world lies in the evil one - Satan.
So if the world swallows up the church she is attached to something which is controlled by Satan, in whom the whole world is under his influence.
Leaven in the New Testament stands for corruption. The parable of the woman that hid leaven in the three measures of meal until the whole lump ...[text shortened]... Matt. 13:33) [/quote]
Give your ALTERNATIVE explanation of the meaning of this parable.
What else you got?
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15 Apr 19
@sonship saidSo Lee's "High peak truths" are not really that high after all?!Two catagories of believers:
1.) "Saved" and Rewarded
2.) "Saved" as yet as through fire, who "suffer loss" ... (destroyed (v.17) )
To suffer loss is equivalent to "God shall destroy him".
You erroneously assume it means eternal destruction.
It is discipline "but he shall be saved yet so as through fire."
This is Witness Lee's viewpoint. ...[text shortened]... is very good.
Scripture REMAINS exalted above any teacher's interpretation of a passage anyway.