Born this way

@avalanchethecat said
It is monstrous, in my opinion, to equate these things, and it troubles me somewhat that as an avowed christian you cannot perceive the massive disparity, regardless of your interpretation of your scripture.

I'm not quite sure what it is you say you hope you have 'cleared up'. What seems clear to me is that you harbour quite powerful negative feelings towards homo ...[text shortened]... empt to understand what was going on in my mind, but of course you are under no obligation to do so.

Your attempt to make me feel guilty about considering homosexuality a sin is a waste of your time. If you get that in your head then we can discuss further.

@rajk999 said
Your attempt to make me feel guilty about considering homosexuality a sin is a waste of your time. If you get that in your head then we can discuss further.

You have misunderstood me if you think that is what I'm trying to do. That's probably down to me not being clear enough.

@avalanchethecat said
It is monstrous, in my opinion, to equate these things, and it troubles me somewhat that as an avowed christian you cannot perceive the massive disparity, regardless of your interpretation of your scripture.

I'm not quite sure what it is you say you hope you have 'cleared up'. What seems clear to me is that you harbour quite powerful negative feelings towards homo ...[text shortened]... empt to understand what was going on in my mind, but of course you are under no obligation to do so.

What sin would be best to compare it to?

Now, keep in mind, there's always some kind of disgust factor that people can bring up, but this is purely cultural. Many people are still quite disgusted by homosexuality. I imagine most Koreans I know looking away from an on-screen gay kiss between two men at their marriage.

Perhaps we can think of something like viewing hardcore pornography...

But, of course, you might want to emphasize this from a POV where it's about two men (or two women or a throuple, greatly in love with each other, in a very romantic, life-defining way. But I would emphasize that this is besides the point.

Plenty of men can love their multiple wives... But polygamy is against our Christian tradition, and we do not take time to argue against a man loving his many wives. It's about the practice of polygamy itself.

@philokalia said
Plenty of men can love their multiple wives... But polygamy is against our Christian tradition, and we do not take time to argue against a man loving his many wives. It's about the practice of polygamy itself.

Aside from your notion of "sin" [i.e transgressing God's will], and aside from your preference for whatever you believe "Christian tradition" is [or should be], and your belief - attendant thereto - that anything that goes "against" that tradition is arguably wrong, is a man having two wives [polygamy] morally unsound, in and of itself, to your way of thinking?

@fmf said
Aside from your notion of "sin" [i.e transgressing God's will], and aside from your preference for whatever you believe "Christian tradition" is [or should be], and your belief - attendant thereto - that anything that goes "against" that tradition is arguably wrong, is a man having two wives [polygamy] morally unsound, in and of itself, to your way of thinking?

Yes

@philokalia said
Yes

OK.

@avalanchethecat said
I do find it interesting how often people seem to use the bible as justification for their own prejudices.

Religious people place a lot of their emphasis - in terms of their faith-based moralizing - on thoughtcrimes. I think non-religious people must resist the urge to respond with their own notions of what are and aren't thoughtcrimes based on their own values.

Personally, I think people have the right to feel "prejudice" about homosexuality i.e. to be disgusted by it, to condemn it, etc. I support freedom of speech but I struggle with supporting any competing 'right not to be offended' as long as the offensive speech does not incite or contribute to crimes.

I think non-religious people are on a hiding to nothing if they seek to debate homosexuality on the Bible's terms: or within the framework of any other religious scripture that is perceived as being "holy" by those who subscribe to it.

The real battle with regard to systematic discrimination against homosexuals is a political one; it's about the ballot box, it's about who is elected, it's about what legislatures do, it's about the rights and responsibilities of citizens.

@rajk999 said
The poster who started this thread is trying to browbeat people into agreeing with him and to say that homosexuality is Gods fault and that since this is the case then people are born this way and therefore it is not a sin, and Christians must accept that.

Interestingly, the poster who started this thread spent at least a couple of years trying to browbeat certain people for disagreeing with him [or more often for being unimpressed by his behaviour] by using sexual slurs and insults regarding their supposed homosexuality.

I have no reason to believe - based on his posting - that the poster who started this thread is anything other than an out and out homophobe, misogynist and racist.

He reminds me of the Nyborgs in Glengarry Glen Ross: their interest in buying land was bogus and narcissistic - "They just like talking to salesmen."

Although, in this case, chaney3 just craves the attention of Christians rather than salesmen.

@bigdoggproblem said
The "born that way" argument may be of little practical relevance.Say it turns out that a small few people are inclined to be sociopaths, or pedophiles. Clearly, we must condemn those people for acting on those urges, even though they are built-in.I do not want to give the impression that I am in any way conflating these two examples with homosexuality. I'm just pointi ...[text shortened]... defend consensual homosexuality. Consenting adults ought to be able to do what (or whom) they want.

I agree with this.

The post that was quoted here has been removed

Are you in principle against people “hurling insults”?

@philokalia said
What sin would be best to compare it to?

Now, keep in mind, there's always some kind of disgust factor that people can bring up, but this is purely cultural. Many people are still quite disgusted by homosexuality. I imagine most Koreans I know looking away from an on-screen gay kiss between two men at their marriage.

Perhaps we can think of something like [i]viewin ...[text shortened]... take time to argue against a man loving his many wives. It's about the practice of polygamy itself.

Well, ill-formed and executed though it may have been, my argument was an attempt to demonstrate that the 'sin' label as used by those who revere the bible is not fit for the purpose for which it is used. I'm sure you're aware that the bible doesn't condemn sexual relations with minors provided they take place within the 'approved' framework therein laid down. So it is a 'sin' for two fully grown adults to express their love for each other physically, but it's ok for a 50yo man to marry a 12yo girl and impregnate her, according to your scripture. That seems to me like a good enough reason to make a big pile of scripture and burn it.

@avalanchethecat said
Well, ill-formed and executed though it may have been, my argument was an attempt to demonstrate that the 'sin' label as used by those who revere the bible is not fit for the purpose for which it is used. I'm sure you're aware that the bible doesn't condemn sexual relations with minors provided they take place within the 'approved' framework therein laid down. So it i ...[text shortened]... r scripture. That seems to me like a good enough reason to make a big pile of scripture and burn it.

Actually the sin label is applied by all religions. If you find one religion on this planet that supports homosexuality I will be surprised. Even though it is a sin, society and governments in many countries. are tolerant and allowing gays to marry and carry on their lives as they wish. So what is your problem? It appears that you want people to abandon their religion because you dont like the fact that God calls it an abomination and a sin. So therefore you are the intolerant one.

@rajk999 said
Actually the sin label is applied by all religions. If you find one religion on this planet that supports homosexuality I will be surprised. Even though it is a sin, society and governments in many countries. are tolerant and allowing gays to marry and carry on their lives as they wish. So what is your problem? It appears that you want people to abandon their religion becau ...[text shortened]... like the fact that God calls it an abomination and a sin. So therefore you are the intolerant one.

You think I'm intolerant for being intolerent of intolerance? Well maybe it'll ease your mind to find out that I absolutely don't want you to abandon your religion.

@fmf said
Interestingly, the poster who started this thread spent at least a couple of years trying to browbeat certain people for disagreeing with him [or more often for being unimpressed by his behaviour] by using sexual slurs and insults regarding their supposed homosexuality.

I have no reason to believe - based on his posting - that the poster who started this thread is anything ot ...[text shortened]... ."

Although, in this case, chaney3 just craves the attention of Christians rather than salesmen.

You have no right to speak about me this way.

My question here is simple.

If homosexuality is natural, then God created it. God then, cannot send a person to hell for it.

The Bible is false in this regard.

@chaney3 said
You have no right to speak about me this way.

My question here is simple.

If homosexuality is natural, then God created it. God then, cannot send a person to hell for it.

The Bible is false in this regard.

I have seen you say directly to a person in the GF that you didn't like him when he told you he was gay.

So yes, we have the right to speak to you that way.