30 Jul 08
Originally posted by josephwI take stands all the time. I take a stand supporting gay rights, but people tell me that is not a traditional value. I take stands on educating young people about keeping an open mind to people who are different in race, sexual orientation, creed, etc. But some people tell me this is not a traditional value.
You don't know what traditional Christian values are?
I know a psychiatrist who is a Unitarian. I'm sure we share many of the same "traditional" Christian values, although we disagree on doctrine.
What is it with you anyway? Don't you have a place where you take a stand? If so, then on what ground do you base your belief?
I haven't taken stands on things like tax cuts, creationism in schools, private school tax breaks, etc, but people tell me these are traditional values.
30 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwin other words, because i don't agree with you, it is pointless to discuss. do you understand what a debate is? it involves two or more parties defending different views on a subject. meaning they disagree.
[b]"why does my distrusting in the bible mean anything i say about those who live by it is questionable?"
Because, if you don't believe that what the Bible says is true, then any discussion we have concerning what it says about life will be fruitless.
"...isn't it better to assume responsibilities for your actions and think for yourself..."
Contrary to popular belief, this is exactly what the Bible teaches us to do![/b]
what you are longing for is a person to see your light and agree with everything you say.
Contrary to popular belief, this is exactly what the Bible teaches us to do.
no its not. or at the very least it is not what the conservatives are preaching. the bible is considered to be the absolute truth, how can you question the absolute truth. why is the catholic church considering birth control sinful? why are conservatives assigning gays to hell?
30 Jul 08
Originally posted by kirksey957Fine. It's our right to take a stand for whatever we believe in. But I asked you to support your position.
I take stands all the time. I take a stand supporting gay rights, but people tell me that is not a traditional value. I take stands on educating young people about keeping an open mind to people who are different in race, sexual orientation, creed, etc. But some people tell me this is not a traditional value.
I haven't taken stands on things like ta ...[text shortened]... sm in schools, private school tax breaks, etc, but people tell me these are traditional values.
Since "gay rights" is an issue for you I would like to know how you arrive at your conclusion.
Anyone can claim a right. But that right needs to be supported with truth. Do you agree?
What truth do you have that supports your position on gay rights?
30 Jul 08
Originally posted by ZahlanziDon't be absurd. I've never backed out of a debate just because someone doesn't agree with me.
in other words, because i don't agree with you, it is pointless to discuss. do you understand what a debate is? it involves two or more parties defending different views on a subject. meaning they disagree.
what you are longing for is a person to see your light and agree with everything you say.
Contrary to popular belief, this is exactly what the Bi ...[text shortened]... catholic church considering birth control sinful? why are conservatives assigning gays to hell?
But you see, when you contradict my assertion that the Bible does indeed teach us to think for ourselves and to be responsible, I realise how little you know about the Bible, and at that point I find it fruitless to continue to engage in what is now only an argument.
30 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by josephwOK, I'll give this a try and maybe bbarr will give me some critique. I arrive at my position from a number of angles. I can take in my own personal experience knowing many gays who have befriended me and seem to be honest and decent people. That has influenced me. I can take in the biblical perspective which is very much misunderstood and misinterpreted. Very little at all about the matter with Jesus having absolutely nothing to say about it. I can also take modern science and current understandings of it which almost universally say it is a normative experience along a spectrum of human sexuality. I can do this in much the same way as we understand today that the world is not flat. I can do reading and research on the issue and learn more. However, I am fully aware that for some people the matter of their biblical understanding or a personal experience may alter their perception of the issue.
Fine. It's our right to take a stand for whatever we believe in. But I asked you to support your position.
Since "gay rights" is an issue for you I would like to know how you arrive at your conclusion.
Anyone can claim a right. But that right needs to be supported with truth. Do you agree?
What truth do you have that supports your position on gay rights?
I once stood by a very conservative father as he watched his son dying of AIDS. I'll never forget what he said. "Well, at least he wasn't a drunk." Your perceptions tend to change when reality bumps up against your ideals, whatever they may be.
31 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by kirksey957Rev, how come whenever you hear about some crazy Christians in the news, it's usually in Kentucky? It's like the Riyadh of Christendom. The shooter's lucky he didn't get a bunch of rattlesnakes sicced on him.
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CHURCH_SHOOTING?SITE=KYLOU&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
Please comment. I believe this man shares your passion for guns and disdain for the so-called theology of this church. I attended this church a couple of months ago. How empty these forums would be without me.
31 Jul 08
Originally posted by DoctorScribblesThis church was in Knoxville, TN and the church was a Unitarian Univeralist Church which we know is like kryptonite to some people in the forums. He picked this one out because it is so liberal. Kentucky is an odd place. As you know the mountains are in the eastern part of the state where I live. I have a theory that the earliest settlers around here were weak in body and mind so they just stayed here to propogate more weak and frail offspring. The strongest and most motivated continued to move west. The genetic pool has become increasingly limited. I don't know which is the dumbest state in the country, but I'm putting West Virginia, Kentucky and Arkansas at the top of the list.
Rev, how come whenever you hear about some crazy Christians in the news, it's usually in Kentucky? It's like the Riyadh of Christendom. The shooter's lucky he didn't get a bunch of rattlesnakes sicced on him.
Here's a quote I heard the other day from a guy. "When a baby is born it already has enough sin to damn it to hell for all eternity."
31 Jul 08
Here you go, Doc. This is one of my favorite Baptist preachers. He likes whiskey, cusses a lot, hangs out with people like you and me and worse. He's a brilliant theologian who doesn't suffer the dribble of fools. Lives out in the woods in Tennessee. You can tell he's tired and old, but he's got a lot of wisdom. Imagine a Baptist preacher saying the church needs to die.
01 Aug 08
Originally posted by kirksey957"Your perceptions tend to change when reality bumps up against your ideals, whatever they may be."
OK, I'll give this a try and maybe bbarr will give me some critique. I arrive at my position from a number of angles. I can take in my own personal experience knowing many gays who have befriended me and seem to be honest and decent people. That has influenced me. I can take in the biblical perspective which is very much misunderstood and misinterpre ...[text shortened]... perceptions tend to change when reality bumps up against your ideals, whatever they may be.
This is true, but when your perceptions are founded on truth no matter what happens you won't be shaken off your foundation.
"However, I am fully aware that for some people the matter of their biblical understanding,.. may alter their perception of the issue."
The Bible is the bedrock for understanding life and living. I find it disheartening that you should rely on your own perceptions for defining reality. It is a contradiction to Biblical instruction.
Ps 119:105 NUN. Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
2Tim. 3:16,17-4:1-4
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
01 Aug 08
Originally posted by kirksey957He did get one thing right. He said, "I don't know, I don't know, I don't know."
Here you go, Doc. This is one of my favorite Baptist preachers. He likes whiskey, cusses a lot, hangs out with people like you and me and worse. He's a brilliant theologian who doesn't suffer the dribble of fools. Lives out in the woods in Tennessee. You can tell he's tired and old, but he's got a lot of wisdom. Imagine a Baptist preacher saying the church needs to die.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDzadM55Wt8
What's so hard to understand that racism exists even within the church?
Racism is a result of sin.
The church isn't going to die. That is absurd.
01 Aug 08
Originally posted by josephw"Gay rights" is simply people who are gay wanting the same rights as people who are not gay. They don't want special treatment. They aren't asking to be the first to board an airplane or three extra french fries in their Happy Meal.
Fine. It's our right to take a stand for whatever we believe in. But I asked you to support your position.
Since "gay rights" is an issue for you I would like to know how you arrive at your conclusion.
Anyone can claim a right. But that right needs to be supported with truth. Do you agree?
What truth do you have that supports your position on gay rights?
01 Aug 08
Originally posted by josephwLet me give you an example. You say "The Bible is the bedrock for understanding life and living. I find it disheartening that you should rely on you own perceptions for defining reality. It is a contradiction to Biblical instruction." Does the Bible say anything about penicillin? Does it say anything about electricity? There are many things in the modern world that it has no opinion on. Is it not reasonable for you as a Christian to think that mankind was given certain talents by God and that we are entrusted to be good stewards of these accomplishments?
[b]"Your perceptions tend to change when reality bumps up against your ideals, whatever they may be."
This is true, but when your perceptions are founded on truth no matter what happens you won't be shaken off your foundation.
"However, I am fully aware that for some people the matter of their biblical understanding,.. may alter their perception ...[text shortened]... ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
01 Aug 08
Originally posted by kirksey957We're not talking about what the Bible doesn't talk about.
Let me give you an example. You say "The Bible is the bedrock for understanding life and living. I find it disheartening that you should rely on you own perceptions for defining reality. It is a contradiction to Biblical instruction." Does the Bible say anything about penicillin? Does it say anything about electricity? There are many things in the m ...[text shortened]... certain talents by God and that we are entrusted to be good stewards of these accomplishments?
My original point was that reasoning about how we are to conduct ourselves in this life concerning everything we think, say, and do without a Biblical basis is a prescription for failure. As a so called minister of the gospel you have demonstrated time and again that you are reluctant to use scripture as a basis for your assertions. I say this as an observation and not as an accusation.
Your personal convictions based on human reasoning and not on the word of God are subject to criticism and fail to pass the Biblical test.
All Christians should look to God for all matters concerning life and living, and should seek His will for those things as recorded in the Bible. When we fail to seek God's counsel we will ultimately fail.
God's word the Bible is explicit concerning all matters of life and living, and any doubts as to it's reliability by those who call themselves Christians is a shame. :'(
There. I feel better now. 😉