02 Aug 08
Originally posted by josephwGood, I'm glad you got that off your chest. Let's look at the issue of homosexuality as I brought that up earlier and I am assuming this is a "biggie" for you in terms of the Christian lifestyle. I think we can both agree that YOU feel it is against God's word.
We're not talking about what the Bible doesn't talk about.
My original point was that reasoning about how we are to conduct ourselves in this life concerning everything we think, say, and do without a Biblical basis is a prescription for failure. As a so called minister of the gospel you have demonstrated time and again that you are reluctant to use scrip ...[text shortened]... ty by those who call themselves Christians is a shame. :'(
There. I feel better now. 😉
Let me ask you a few questions if I may.
1) Why do you think people are gay?
2) Do you believe that gay people are inherently bad because of their sexual orientation?
3) Do you believe that there is a scriptural formula to make them straight?
4) Do you believe that you could be made to be gay?
My questions are only designed to understand you better.
02 Aug 08
Carlyle Marney was one of the greatest Baptist theologians. He wrote a famous essay on the Christian response to homosexuality. Here is a brief description of it.
Marney maintained that the repression of the homosexual (in the culture and in the church) results from a combination of hysteria, social conditioning, and ideological bias. The church's error lies in: (1) its inability collectively to acknowledge its own failure in dealing with the sexual complexities of people; (2) its inadequate expression of community, so that class, race, and sexual diversity still divide congregations; and (3) its failure to probe more deeply the relationship between grace and sexuality: under what circumstances does sexuality convey grace, and when does it not? In Marney's view, Christians should more appropriately be concerned about aggression, exploitation, and psychic injury of others, whether such are committed by homosexuals or heterosexuals. An obsessive and pernicious concern with homosexuals often obscures the suffering found in many heterosexual relationships and denies the guilt which we all bear. We all lack the ability to love. What is needed is for the church to speak with a sane voice, and be a community of compassion and grace for all who struggle to find love and dignity in their sexual lives. We do not honor our Lord, said Marney, when we stereotype people, condemn them without knowing who they are, and isolate them from the bonds of community.
03 Aug 08
Originally posted by kirksey957I don't watch youtube on here, because of my sloooowww internet connection...
Here you go, Doc. This is one of my favorite Baptist preachers. He likes whiskey, cusses a lot, hangs out with people like you and me and worse. He's a brilliant theologian who doesn't suffer the dribble of fools. Lives out in the woods in Tennessee. You can tell he's tired and old, but he's got a lot of wisdom. Imagine a Baptist preacher saying the church needs to die.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xDzadM55Wt8
...but I bet I can name the guy you're talking about! 🙂
03 Aug 08
2 edits
Originally posted by kirksey9571) "Why do you think people are gay?"
Good, I'm glad you got that off your chest. Let's look at the issue of homosexuality as I brought that up earlier and I am assuming this is a "biggie" for you in terms of the Christian lifestyle. I think we can both agree that YOU feel it is against God's word.
Let me ask you a few questions if I may.
1) Why do you think people are gay?
2) D ...[text shortened]... at you could be made to be gay?
My questions are only designed to understand you better.
Not for biological reasons. I believe due to environmental and experiential causes. Imprinting. Then subsequent psychological impairment.
2) "Do you believe that gay people are inherently bad because of their sexual orientation?"
No. Sexual orientation is not the cause, but a symptom of a specific cause. (see answer to question #1)
3) "Do you believe that there is a scriptural formula to make them straight?"
I wouldn't use the word formula. But yes.
I would have to reference Heb 4:12 as a place to start to begin looking for the path to peace with God for anyone who may feel troubled in spirit over an issue they may struggle with.
"For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart."
4) "Do you believe that you could be made to be gay?"
I'm not sure what you mean. I have never experienced the inclination or the temptation. Maybe in another life is as honest an answer I can give you.
03 Aug 08
Originally posted by kirksey957IQ averages in US States - best estimate available
This church was in Knoxville, TN and the church was a Unitarian Univeralist Church which we know is like kryptonite to some people in the forums. He picked this one out because it is so liberal. Kentucky is an odd place. As you know the mountains are in the eastern part of the state where I live. I have a theory that the earliest settlers around here ...[text shortened]... guy. "When a baby is born it already has enough sin to damn it to hell for all eternity."
from actual SAT and ACT scores below
104 IQ New Hampshire
103 IQ Massachusetts, Oregon, Wisconsin
102 IQ Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Montana, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Vermont, Washington
101 IQ Alaska, Maryland, Michigan, Missouri, New York, Ohio, Utah, Wyoming
100 IQ Arizona, California, Idaho, Maine, Nevada, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, Rhode Island, South Dakota, Virginia, West Virginia
99 IQ Delaware, Hawaii, Indiana
98 IQ Arkansas, Florida
97 IQ Alabama, Georgia, Kentucky, Louisiana, North Carolina, Tennessee, Texas
96 IQ New Mexico
95 IQ District of Columbia
94 IQ Mississippi, South Carolina
http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQ-States.htm
03 Aug 08
Originally posted by AThousandYoungIsn't the average between 90 and 115?
[b]IQ averages in US States - best estimate available
from actual SAT and ACT scores below
104 IQ New Hampshire
103 IQ Massachusetts, Oregon, Wisconsin
102 IQ Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Montana, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Vermont, Washington
101 IQ Alaska, Maryland, Michigan, Missouri, ...[text shortened]... t of Columbia
94 IQ Mississippi, South Carolina
http://www.sq.4mg.com/IQ-States.htm[/b]
03 Aug 08
Originally posted by josephwSo tell me how you could make a gay person straight. How does that happen?
1) [b]"Why do you think people are gay?"
Not for biological reasons. I believe due to environmental and experiential causes. Imprinting. Then subsequent psychological impairment.
2) "Do you believe that gay people are inherently bad because of their sexual orientation?"
No. Sexual orientation is not the cause, but a symptom of a specific ...[text shortened]... tion or the temptation. Maybe in another life is as honest an answer I can give you.[/b]
03 Aug 08
Originally posted by josephwNumber 4 means that if being gay is something that is "caused" rather than an inborn orientation, then it's possible for you, too to become gay. If you believe that it's not possible for you to become gay, then being gay isn't something a person becomes but something that is.
1) [b]"Why do you think people are gay?"
Not for biological reasons. I believe due to environmental and experiential causes. Imprinting. Then subsequent psychological impairment.
2) "Do you believe that gay people are inherently bad because of their sexual orientation?"
No. Sexual orientation is not the cause, but a symptom of a specific ...[text shortened]... tion or the temptation. Maybe in another life is as honest an answer I can give you.[/b]
I'd like to hear more about your answer to number one. If it's due to environmental and experiential causes, why aren't all siblings in a family gay? Why are boys gay who've had no contact with gay men and have had all the experiences of their straight friends and relatives?
03 Aug 08
Originally posted by pawnhandlerPlus, why would anybody choose to be gay when all they will know is persecution, being ostracised and confused.
Number 4 means that if being gay is something that is "caused" rather than an inborn orientation, then it's possible for you, too to become gay. If you believe that it's not possible for you to become gay, then being gay isn't something a person becomes but something that is.
I'd like to hear more about your answer to number one. If it ...[text shortened]... with gay men and have had all the experiences of their straight friends and relatives?
03 Aug 08
Originally posted by kirksey957Maybe you'll have some insight into a couple of things I find difficult to understand.
Plus, why would anybody choose to be gay when all they will know is persecution, being ostracised and confused.
Many Christians ostracize gays from their church if not the community at large because they believe that homosexuality is a sin, but do not ostracize those who practice gluttony, for instance.
Many Christians seem to believe that gays can "change", but do not believe that anyone can cease to sin.
Any thoughts?
03 Aug 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSomething about a log in one's eye comes to mind.
Maybe you'll have some insight into a couple of things I find difficult to understand.
Many Christians ostracize gays from their church if not the community at large because they believe that homosexuality is a sin, but do not ostracize those who practice gluttony, for instance.
Many Christians seem to believe that gays can "change", but do not believe that anyone can cease to sin.
Any thoughts?
03 Aug 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOften people think there's a hierarchy of sin. The less likely they are to commit a particular sin, the graver it is. I know people who are very slender and have been for decades; they consider gluttony (and therefore everyone who's overweight) to be the most horrendous sin. Notice that in those churches run by allegedly celibate people, sex-based sins are at the top of the horror list.
Yeah, there's definitely that. I thought maybe you'd spoken to some people in depth and had some insight into their line of thinking.
04 Aug 08
Originally posted by kirksey957How so?
Something about a log in one's eye comes to mind.
Define gluttony as opposed to open homosexuality.
Do you really believe that homosexuals are ostracised by Christians because there is a log in their eye?
The Bible clearly teaches that all local assemblies are to be autonomous. Who is the head of the church kirksey?
Who decides what the truth is?