Can Forensic Science Trace the World’s Origins?

@handyandy said
It's okay if you prefer not to answer.

Why would I prefer that?

Here are a couple of verses, but if these are not the type of things you want to discuss we can pass on these for others.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Proverbs 20:12
The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the Lord has made them both.

Genesis 1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I have no beliefs about God. I'm an atheist.

That in itself is a belief about God.

@deepthought said
That in itself is a belief about God.

No. It is the exact opposite of holding a belief. It is disbelief.

Rejecting someone else's belief is not a belief in itself. We hold no attachment to a disbelief.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
No. It is the exact opposite of holding a belief. It is disbelief.

Rejecting someone else's belief is not a belief in itself. We hold no attachment to a disbelief.

I have to disagree with this. If you believe that a proposition is not true then you have a belief about that proposition. So if you believe that there is no God then you have a belief about God. Someone who has never heard of the concept can be said not to have a belief about it, but cannot claim not to have a belief about it - since they'd have to have heard of the idea in order to make such a claim.

I'm an agnostic, I do not believe there is a God and I do not believe that there is no God. So I have weaker beliefs about the existence of God than you do, but that does not prevent me from having beliefs about the properties God or Gods would have to have if they existed. Making a definite statement about the non-existence of God means that you have a definite belief about God.

Being emotionally committed to a belief is not a criterion of belief. I believe that Pluto is an astronomical object. It's even a justified belief which is true. Despite this I do not have any particular attachment to the idea, I really don't care and wouldn't be particularly upset if it turned out not to exist - this doesn't stop me having a belief about it.

@kellyjay said
Why would I prefer that?

Here are a couple of verses, but if these are not the type of things you want to discuss we can pass on these for others.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

Proverbs 20:12
The hearing ear and the seeing eye, the Lord has made them both.

Genesis 1
In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.

We were discussing the concepts of truth and reality. I asked if you believed that
your Bible accurately reflects reality. You replied that, in context, it does.

Now, to pursue that thought, can you list, briefly, a few examples of actual events
that are chronicled in Bible passages and that are supported by credible evidence?

My belief is that your Bible is mythical, not literal.

@handyandy said
We were discussing the concepts of truth and reality. I asked if you believed that
your Bible accurately reflects reality. You replied that, in context, it does.

Now, to pursue that thought, can you list, briefly, a few examples of actual events
that are chronicled in Bible passages and that are supported by credible evidence?

My belief is that your Bible is mythical, not literal.

I believe what I put up fits that discussion. You have a portion of scripture you have issues with? I believe the Genesis account on where many of the races started, all of the scriptures that speak to the Temple worship, how God tracked the genealogy of Jesus Christ from Adam. The history concerning Jesus and His ministry, the predictions before His birth, and all the predictions of what is to come.

Feel free to pick something!

@handyandy said
We were discussing the concepts of truth and reality. I asked if you believed that
your Bible accurately reflects reality. You replied that, in context, it does.

Now, to pursue that thought, can you list, briefly, a few examples of actual events
that are chronicled in Bible passages and that are supported by credible evidence?

My belief is that your Bible is mythical, not literal.

There’s a lot of heath instructions in scripture that you can compare to modern medicine. Had the writers used the medical knowledge of the day in whole or in part that would be faith shattering. So all OT scriptures that speak to human actions that are not healthy would be on your side!

@kellyjay said
I believe what I put up fits that discussion. You have a portion of scripture you have issues with? I believe the Genesis account on where many of the races started, all of the scriptures that speak to the Temple worship, how God tracked the genealogy of Jesus Christ from Adam. The history concerning Jesus and His ministry, the predictions before His birth, and all the predictions of what is to come.

Feel free to pick something!

Which of these is supported by credible evidence? We're seeking fact, not fable.

@deepthought said
I have to disagree with this. If you believe that a proposition is not true then you have a belief about that proposition. So if you believe that there is no God then you have a belief about God. Someone who has never heard of the concept can be said not to have a belief about it, but cannot claim not to have a belief about it - since they'd have to have heard of the i ...[text shortened]... be particularly upset if it turned out not to exist - this doesn't stop me having a belief about it.

Okay, let's take God off the table.

My young niece believes in Father Christmas. This belief to her has substance and meaning. Obviously, I do not believe in Father Christmas. His non-existence is irrelevant to me and a complete non-issue without meaning or substance. I have an intellectual and grown-up 'rejection' of the thing she says she believes in. To call this rejection/disbelief a 'belief' in itself is a flagrant assault on semantics.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Okay, let's take God off the table.

My young niece believes in Father Christmas. This belief to her has substance and meaning. Obviously, I do not believe in Father Christmas. His non-existence is irrelevant to me and a complete non-issue without meaning or substance. I have an intellectual and grown-up 'rejection' of the thing she says she believes in. To call this rejection/disbelief a 'belief' in itself is a flagrant assault on semantics.

You don’t take God off the table even in this discussion you proclaimed truth declaring God isn’t real. A belief about God suggesting He is not present or responsible, are beliefs about God.

@handyandy said
Which of these is supported by credible evidence? We're seeking fact, not fable.

Well what about the health instructions in scripture, you have an issue with those?

@deepthought said
I'm an agnostic, I do not believe there is a God and I do not believe that there is no God. So I have weaker beliefs about the existence of God than you do, but that does not prevent me from having beliefs about the properties God or Gods would have to have if they existed. Making a definite statement about the non-existence of God means that you have a definite belief about God.

I also do not believe there is no god or gods. What's interesting here on this forum is that Christians such as sonship and SecondSon and KellyJay and others think that my belief that their religion is not a 'true' divine revelation means that I believe that there is no god or gods.

I have been making it clear for over ten years that I do not claim there is no God and yet the very people I have been saying that to - over and over again - for over ten years insist on characterizing my belief as that of an explicit or 'hard' atheist because I am unmoved by their partisan-theist proselytizing.

It's peculiar how often it comes up. And then you have sonship, for example, who veers between insisting that I claim that there is no God, to insisting that I [instead] DO believe in his god figure [but I am lying to everybody including myself about it].

It can be difficult sifting through the beliefs and stances on one hand, and the rhetorical gimmicks used to bluster through conversations, on the other.

Ghost of a Duke has stated that he is open minded to credible information that would establish in his mind that there is a god or gods. That gives him something in common with my agnostic or implicit atheism, I think.

@kellyjay said
Well what about the health instructions in scripture, you have an issue with those?

Health instructions?

I'm having an issue keeping a straight face.

Is that all you've got?

@handyandy said
Health instructions?

I'm having an issue keeping a straight face.

Is that all you've got?

Really, you think during a time in history where the top medical minds believed in bleeding people, and doing other things of this nature that having sound medical advice given even by today's standards isn't something of note? Why? If it was written by men of the day without divine inspiration how would that not be the case? Seriously, why wouldn't all of the medical practice of ancient Egypt not make into the OT scripture, or even some small bits and pieces, instead of none?

@handyandy said
Health instructions?

I'm having an issue keeping a straight face.

Is that all you've got?

No it isn't all I got, but if you want to debunk scripture this would be thee place to do it! We can argue about the distant past, but in that argument no matter which one of us is right neither could really sway the other. We are left with what was said then, that we could prove today. Having something occur supernaturally isn't something I can prove yet believe in, and the same thing is true for you in your disbelieving. Many of the things God did, He did it in such ways that man couldn't take credit for it such has women past the time of child bearing having kids, even a virgin having a child. Can you prove these didn't happen as written, or just say you don't believe they did?

Personally I think the more we learn about life and its make up and the universe they too show accidents couldn't produce what it is here either. A lot of questions about the complexity of life seem to go unanswered.