Originally posted by sonship4.) It did happen and its perpetrators claimed that they were told to do it by their God figure.
1.) It didn't happen and some writers wrote a slanderously false account implicating God.
2.) It did happen and God was wrong.
3.) It did happen and God was right and we need to catch up with His wisdom and knowledge.
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Originally posted by FMFWell, you know how I feel about that 4th option.
4.) It did happen and its perpetrators claimed that they were told to do it by their God figure.
. Your figment of imagination "former Christian" fictional character simply cannot spiritually discern the divine inspiration of the Bible.
No. That can't be it. Option 3 I'll go with.
29 Sep 15
Originally posted by sonshipCop-out.
Well, you know how I feel about that 4th option.
. Your figment of imagination "former Christian" fictional character simply cannot spiritually discern the inspiration of the Bible.
If this is true, why waste time talking to people who have no spiritual discernment? What could you possibly get out of such a discussion?
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Originally posted by BigDoggProblemWe Christians are exhorted to give an answer to anyone who asks for a reason for out belief. Though it may be a time waster to some. I still occasionally do give an answer for my faith.
Cop-out.
If this is true, why waste time talking to people who have no spiritual discernment? What could you possibly get out of such a discussion?
I might have something to say about the "circular reasoning" comment latter.
Oh, FMF's forth option was I think really just a rehash of my option 1
1.) It didn't happen and some writers wrote a slanderously false account implicating God.
Compare
4.) It did happen and its perpetrators claimed that they were told to do it by their God figure.
Same thing. Option 1 is essentially, the possibility that in detail it didn't happen or something else happened instead.
29 Sep 15
Are we missing the point. In killing the Canaanites Jehovah was putting an end to their wickedness (as He did with the flood).
Also, Jehovah has the ability to resurrect them and give them life again.
The lesson we need to take is that the world today are the Canaanites.
The warning is that they will be destroyed.
Today it will not be by His people but by His Son Christ Jesus and the heavenly armies. That destruction will be final with no hope of a resurrection.
Originally posted by sonshipI imagine that the genocide probably did happen and its story was passed down by the oral tradition until it was finally written down.
Same thing. Option 1 is essentially, the possibility that in detail it didn't happen or something else happened instead.
29 Sep 15
Originally posted by roigamYou are predicting this will happen during your lifetime; so what's the maximum number of years you say we have to go before this "final" destruction occurs?
Are we missing the point. In killing the Canaanites Jehovah was putting an end to their wickedness (as He did with the flood).
Also, Jehovah has the ability to resurrect them and give them life again.
The lesson we need to take is that the world today are the Canaanites.
The warning is that they will be destroyed.
Today it will not be by His people but by ...[text shortened]... st Jesus and the heavenly armies. That destruction will be final with no hope of a resurrection.
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FMF's main suspicion about the Canaan conquest:
4.) It did happen and its perpetrators claimed that they were told to do it by their God figure.
This definition of aggrandizing will do for an examination of the theory proposed by FMF.
aggrandize (ˈæɡrənˌdaɪz; əˈɡrænˌdaɪz) or aggrandize
vb (tr)
1. to increase the power, wealth, prestige, scope, etc, of
2. to cause (something) to seem greater; magnify; exaggerate
[C17: from Old French aggrandiss-, long stem of aggrandir to make bigger, from Latin grandisgrand; the ending -ize is due to the influence of verbs ending in -ise, -ize]
It is argued that the Canaan conquest was purely self aggrandizing national propaganda. "God told us to do it. That is why we slaughtered the Canaanites. " - But really God didn't. It just makes the greed appear divinely sanctioned.
But consider proportions of such writing to the proportions of the OT which devalued the divine favor shown to Israel in the Old Testament. The bulk amount of material showing Israel being punishing Israel's rather than God using Israel to punish her enemies is far greater.
The harshest instances of God helping Israel to terminated Canaanite foes is in the book of Joshua with some material in Exodus and Numbers.
But compared to the bulk material written by Israelite prophets about Israel being chastised for her own sins against Jehovah, is far greater. I think disproportionate amount of space is dedicated to God bringing suffering down on His "chosen people" for them breaking covenant with God. There is a lopsided abundance of history of God's displeasure AGAINST Israel than His being pleased that the Canaanites were killed by them.
If self theological self aggrandizing national propaganda was the main motive of the Old Testament writers, how come they spent so much more time to recording this God's punishing of Israel ?
Large portions of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Lamentations, and other minor prophets do more to underscore how unfavorable the "chosen people" were to their God and how often and severe was the divine discipline they provoked.
The conquest of Canaan is there. But there is much more of the conquest of Israel in response to the forewarned departure from their covenant with Yahweh. And in the New Testament a rabbi [Paul] summed up the Hebrew Bible as "the ministry of condemnation".
IE. A legacy to how failed a theocratic state was in pleasing God.
03 Oct 15
Originally posted by FMFYou should know by now that offering ~ instead ~ only emotional/sneering outbursts gets you nowhere, except perhaps for whatever message board kicks it gives you.
Still no proper response to what I posted. You should know by now that offering ~ instead ~ only emotional/sneering outbursts gets you nowhere, except perhaps for whatever message board kicks it gives you.
Well, professor, what's your excuse in light of that dictum?
03 Oct 15
Originally posted by sonshipFMF's main suspicion about the Canaan conquest:
4.) It did happen and its perpetrators claimed that they were told to do it by their God figure.
This definition of aggrandizing will do for an examination of the theory proposed by FMF.
aggrandize (ˈæɡrənˌdaɪz; əˈɡrænˌdaɪz) or aggrandize
vb (tr)
1. to increase the power, wealth, prestige, scope, etc, of
2. to cause (something) to seem greater; magnify; exaggerate
[C17: from Old French aggrandiss-, long stem of aggrandir to make bigger, from Latin grandisgrand; the ending -ize is due to the influence of verbs ending in -ise, -ize]
It is argued that the Canaan conquest was purely self aggrandizing national propaganda. "God told us to do it. That is why we slaughtered the Canaanites. " - But really God didn't. It just makes the greed appear divinely sanctioned.
But consider proportions of such writing to the proportions of the OT which devalued the divine favor shown to Israel in the Old Testament. The bulk amount of material showing Israel being punishing Israel's rather than God using Israel to punish her enemies is far greater.
The harshest instances of God helping Israel to terminated Canaanite foes is in the book of [b]Joshua with some material in Exodus and Numbers.
But compared to the bulk material written by Israelite prophets about Israel being chastised for her own sins against Jehovah, is far greater. I think disproportionate amount of space is dedicated to God bringing suffering down on His "chosen people" for them breaking covenant with God. There is a lopsided abundance of history of God's displeasure AGAINST Israel than His being pleased that the Canaanites were killed by them.
If self theological self aggrandizing national propaganda was the main motive of the Old Testament writers, how come they spent so much more time to recording this God's punishing of Israel ?
Large portions of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Lamentations, and other minor prophets do more to underscore how unfavorable the "chosen people" were to their God and how often and severe was the divine discipline they provoked.
The conquest of Canaan is there. But there is much more of the conquest of Israel in response to the forewarned departure from their covenant with Yahweh. And in the New Testament a rabbi [Paul] summed up the Hebrew Bible as "the ministry of condemnation".
IE. A legacy to how failed a theocratic state was in pleasing God.[/b]
I have no convincing reason to believe that "God" told anyone to commit genocide against anyone.
07 Oct 15
Originally posted by FMFIt doesn't happen in a single day.
You are predicting this will happen during your lifetime; so what's the maximum number of years you say we have to go before this "final" destruction occurs?
It's a process and it is happening right now. Just look at the World situation.
As for the day and the hour, no one knows, not even Jesus Christ (although no doubt Jesus is preparing for that final destruction).
Are you?
(2 Peter 3:11-14) Since all these things are to be dissolved in this way, consider what sort of people you ought to be in holy acts of conduct and deeds of godly devotion, 12 as you await and keep close in mind the presence of the day of Jehovah, through which the heavens will be destroyed in flames and the elements will melt in the intense heat! 13 But there are new heavens and a new earth that we are awaiting according to his promise, and in these righteousness is to dwell. 14 Therefore, beloved ones, since you are awaiting these things, do your utmost to be found finally by him spotless and unblemished and in peace.
07 Oct 15
Originally posted by FMFOne day reality will set in.
Am I preparing for something you're telling me you imagine is going to happen? Of course not.
(Ezekiel 38:16) ..... In the final part of the days I will bring you against my land so that the nations may know me when I sanctify myself through you before their eyes, O Gog.”’
(Ezekiel 38:23) And I will certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.’
(Ezekiel 38:23) And I will certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.’
(Matthew 6:9) “You must pray, then, this way: “‘Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.
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08 Oct 15
2 edits
Originally posted by FMFI have no convincing reason to believe that "God" told anyone to commit genocide against anyone.
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So the Canaanite slaughter is the one thing which forbids "you" to believe that Jesus Christ as the Son of God ?