Chance or by Design ?

Originally posted by FMF
"Peter and Paul"? You have moved the goalposts yet again.

so how does evolution equate with the idea of a creator, have you any evidence that
God used the theory of evolution to produce the diversity of life we see, do tell.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
not only does it logically imply that it does by virtue of it being part of his belief system,
its practically cannot help but influence his morality/behaviour. You just cant handle
truth.

not only does it logically imply that it does by virtue of it being part of his belief system, ….

no it doesn't. You obviously don't understand logic because one CLEARLY does NOT logically imply the other:

the fact that he believes that the Earth is round is part of his belief system;
so exactly HOW does this belief effect ( in a non-trivial way ) his morality?
Does it make him somehow “more” or “less” moral? -answer, no.

So Exactly HOW does the belief of the theory of evolution effect ( in a non-trivial way ) his morality?
Does it make him somehow “more” or “less” moral? -answer, no; and “no” for exactly the same reason why the belief of round-Earth doesn't effect his morality i.e. it is because these facts about the world are not anything to do with how we morally OUGHT to behave towards each other ( or even just simply behave ) .

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
so how does evolution equate with the idea of a creator, have you any evidence that
God used the theory of evolution to produce the diversity of life we see, do tell.

We are talking about people's beliefs about a creator and evolution, not whether you agree with them, or whether I believe the same thing about "God" as you do. Clearly people can believe in a creator and also believe in evolution. It's not true to say, as you do, that the two beliefs are "opposed".

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
both are kind of linked in a way, for example philosophically, the idea that existence is
explicable solely in material terms, with no accounting of spirit or consciousness or
intelligence and this in turn will influence reality for the individual, 'there is no reality
but that which is material'. My argument is, that the adoption of such a ph ...[text shortened]... ings, get a good job, buy the biggest house you can, amass as much money
as you can, etc etc

do you really think that atheist are more materialistic than theists? what has made you draw this conclusion. i would say materialism in the human sense is brought about by insecurity and unhappiness brought about because of a failure in culture. a key cause being the work-play balance being skewed. nothing to do with religion.

i think atheist make up about 30% of britain. is that 30% at fault for the materialistic society we have now?

Originally posted by FMF
We are talking about people's beliefs about a creator and evolution, not whether you agree with them, or whether I believe the same thing about "God" as you do. Clearly people can believe in a creator and also believe in evolution. It's not true to say, as you do, that the two beliefs are "opposed".

yes they are opposed, for there is no empirical evidence that God used the
evolutionary process and in ever Holy book i know of, God creates the universe
directly. You have provided nothing to the contrary therefore my assertion stands.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes they are opposed, for there is no empirical evidence that God used the
evolutionary process and in ever Holy book i know of, God creates the universe
directly. You have provided nothing to the contrary therefore my assertion stands.

We are not talking about whether you agree with the people who believe in there being a creator and who believe in evolution. Hundreds of millions of Roman Catholics believe in both, for instance. You cannot seriously claim that (a) Catholics don't believe in there being a creator, and (b) that they don't believe in evolution if they clearly believe in it.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
do you really think that atheist are more materialistic than theists? what has made you draw this conclusion. i would say materialism in the human sense is brought about by insecurity and unhappiness brought about because of a failure in culture. a key cause being the work-play balance being skewed. nothing to do with religion.

i think atheist make up about 30% of britain. is that 30% at fault for the materialistic society we have now?

No theists are equally inclined, perhaps more so, i cannot say, to be materialistic in a
'material sense', that is gaining more material things, why, because i believe that in the
majority of cases their form of worship is a semblance which has no power to prevent
them from becoming materialistic. this is further compounded by the fact that material
things do not necessarily mean one is materialistic, for example you could be super
rich but the trappings of your riches mean nothing to you, whereas you could be super
poor and desire all the material things and really strive hard for them, so its not so
simple to draw generalities.

Originally posted by FMF
We are not talking about whether you agree with the people who believe in there being a creator and who believe in evolution. Hundreds of millions of Roman Catholics believe in both, for instance. You cannot seriously claim that (a) Catholics don't believe in there being a creator, and (b) that they don't believe in evolution if they clearly believe in it.

clearly Christ, Paul and Peter taught that the earth, the universe and humans were
created, please tell me how that aligns itself with the theory that life originated from
non living matter and diversified through the process of evolution, clearly the two are
mutually exclusive!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
clearly Christ, Paul and Peter taught that the earth, the universe and humans were
created, please tell me how that aligns itself with the theory that life originated from
non living matter and diversified through the process of evolution, clearly the two are
mutually exclusive!

We are not talking about "Paul and Peter", robbie. People DO believe in both. That you don't believe in both is beside the point. You cannot claim that no one can believe in a creator AND in evolution when so many people simply do. That you disagree with them is "data" about your beliefs. That you disagree with them does not affect what their beliefs are.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Its scary how poor the american education system is.

Even if the education system was great, there would still be extreme religious/social pressure to deny evolution.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
Even if the education system was great, there would still be extreme religious/social pressure to deny evolution.

True.
At least some of the fault for stupidity must be nature and not nurture.

I had the very good fortune to be brought up by morally responsible parents and had reasonable albeit less-than-perfect education opportunities but I find it extremely hard to imagine me stupidly denying scientific facts if I hadn't had either.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No theists are equally inclined, perhaps more so, i cannot say, to be materialistic in a
'material sense', that is gaining more material things, why, because i believe that in the
majority of cases their form of worship is a semblance which has no power to prevent
them from becoming materialistic. this is further compounded by the fact that ma ...[text shortened]... material things and really strive hard for them, so its not so
simple to draw generalities.

you confuse me robbie, im not sure what you are saying. you seem to indicate that there is something more to evolution that you dislike other than the theory. you allude to materialism stemming from evolution, or to be more accurate you believe that a person who believes in evolution is effected by there beliefs in a materialistic way, part human materialism and part philosophical materialism.
yet you say there is no difference between atheists and theist when it comes to human materialism.
what is it that you believe the belief in evolution creates in a human?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
you confuse me robbie, im not sure what you are saying. you seem to indicate that there is something more to evolution that you dislike other than the theory. you allude to materialism stemming from evolution, or to be more accurate you believe that a person who believes in evolution is effected by there beliefs in a materialistic way, part human materi ...[text shortened]... to human materialism.
what is it that you believe the belief in evolution creates in a human?

I began with a premise, different beliefs influence different behaviour, specifically
beliefs about the origin of the universe, evolution, grouped under the generic term,
materialism. This was not a comparison of atheist v theist, or of philosophical
materialism and commercial materialism v frugality and conservatism.

I do not think that for one moment atheists are likely to be less ethically responsible
than theists within the parameters of their respective beliefs, or that theists are less
likely to sin than atheists, never the less, if the premise is true, then clearly belief in
or lack of believe in a deity will influence a persons behaviour. I provided a
quotation from Huxley which demonstrated the fact that he wanted life to be
meaningless so that he could have a justification to pursue his personal freedoms,
political, sexual etc an instance of a belief, or lack of a belief influencing behaviour.
In the case of the theist he might cite his belief in Jesus Christ as the reason why he
gave up substance abuse and became more compassionate and less self absorbed,
belief influencing behaviour.

Originally posted by FMF
We are not talking about "Paul and Peter", robbie. People DO believe in both. That you don't believe in both is beside the point. You cannot claim that no one can believe in a creator AND in evolution when so many people simply do. That you disagree with them is "data" about your beliefs. That you disagree with them does not affect what their beliefs are.

I dont care what they believe, the two are mutually exclusive, if Christ states that we
were created by God and he does, it excludes the prospect that fish became
amphibians, amphibians reptiles, reptiles birds, birds mammals etc. Lots of people
once believed the earth was flat, so what?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I dont care what they believe, the two are mutually exclusive, if Christ states that we
were created by God and he does, it excludes the prospect that fish became
amphibians, amphibians reptiles, reptiles birds, birds mammals etc. Lots of people
once believed the earth was flat, so what?

It isn't about what I believe and don't believe, robbie. And it isn't about what Christ said or didn't say. There are people who believe in there being a creator and in evolution, so they cannot be said to be beliefs that are "opposed". Your 'Terms Of Reference' are not necessarily other people's 'Terms Of Reference', no matter how earnest and certain you are about yours.