Chance or by Design ?

Originally posted by googlefudge
People believe in mutually contradictory things, this is evident and undeniable.

This is not what I have been debating.

There are people who believe that world is flat... They are just plain wrong, and idiotic to boot.

I haven't been debating whether the "world is flat".

Originally posted by googlefudge
The fact that someone holds a belief or set of beliefs does not make those beliefs valid.

Whether or not you or robbie think that someone's beliefs are "valid" is neither here nor there.

Originally posted by googlefudge
However the fact that people can believe mutually contradictory things does not make those things compatible or for it to be reasonable to believe such things.

I am not claiming that people don't ever hold mutually exclusive beliefs.

Originally posted by FMF
Whether or not you or robbie think that someone's beliefs are "valid" is neither here nor there.

Actually it's the whole point of the argument.



People sometimes believe mutually exclusive, diametrically opposing, contradictory things.

In that instance AT LEAST one of those beliefs MUST be false.

It can't possibly be logically or rationally valid to believe mutually contradictory things.

They can't all be correct.


Thus it is perfectly reasonable to state that it is not reasonable or valid to believe things that
are mutually contradictory because that guarantees that at least one of those beliefs is false.



Whether or not in this specific instance where robbie is claiming that it's not valid to believe in
creationism/god AND evolution at the same time is a specific argument as to whether those two
beliefs/views are compatible or not.

However the fact that people do believe both is not evidence that they are compatible and is not
a valid argument that they are compatible.


My point about their being people who believe that the world is flat is that the fact that those people
exist and do believe that the world is actually flat does not make that belief valid or reasonable.

The world is evidently and obviously and demonstrably not flat, and no amount of people believing
otherwise will change that.


And if we can say to Flat-Earther's that their beliefs are not reasonable or valid or true because the
world is evidently not flat, then it must be in general a valid criticism or argument to make any time
you come across beliefs that are not reasonable.

Now you can argue the merits of weather specific beliefs are or are not valid or true, and whether
specific beliefs are contradictory or not, but it's not reasonable to say that it's never reasonable to claim
someone's beliefs are not valid or reasonable.


All beliefs are not equally true and not equally valid.

Originally posted by googlefudge
People sometimes believe mutually exclusive, diametrically opposing, contradictory things.

I am not denying this. This is not the point being discussed.

My point about their being people who believe that the world is flat is that the fact that those people exist and do believe that the world is actually flat does not make that belief valid or reasonable.

I am not talking about the world being flat or round. Your view that believing the world to be flat is not reasonable, is of no relevance to what I have been discussing with robbie.

Originally posted by googlefudge
All beliefs are not equally true and not equally valid.

This is not what is being discussed. What you or I do or don't think is "equally valid" is besides the point.

Originally posted by googlefudge
And if we can say to Flat-Earther's that their beliefs are not reasonable or valid or true because the
world is evidently not flat, then it must be in general a valid criticism or argument to make any time
you come across beliefs that are not reasonable.

Now you can argue the merits of weather specific beliefs are or are not valid or true, and whe fs are not valid or reasonable.


All beliefs are not equally true and not equally valid.

What you find "reasonable" or "valid" is neither here nor there. It does not whether you do or don't believe in a creator. And it does not whether you do or don't believe in evolution. To believe that life was originated by a creator and then evolved does not involve one belief "excluding" the other, regardless of your views on the origin of life or on science more generally.

Originally posted by FMF
This is not what is being discussed. What you or I do or don't think is "equally valid" is besides the point.

Hi, could you try replying to my post as a whole and not as disparate sentences.


And if you think I have missed the point as to what is being discussed, how about you
explaining what you are actually talking about?



You seem to me to be advocating a relativism of beliefs such that nobody can criticise
anyone else for what they believe because everyone's beliefs are equally valid.

This strikes me as being dangerous nonsense.


If that is not what you are arguing/saying, then some clarification seems to be in order.


EDIT:

What you find "reasonable" or "valid" is neither here nor there. It does not whether
you do or don't believe in a creator. And it does not whether you do or don't believe in evolution.
To believe that life was originated by a creator and then evolved does not involve one belief
"excluding" the other, regardless of your views on the origin of life or on science more generally.

It doesn't matter to what?

As I have said, whether or not evolution and creationism are mutually incompatible (I think that they are)
is a separate argument from whether or not it's reasonable to criticise people for holding beliefs that are
mutually incompatible in general.

And the philosophy behind science is as I say diametrically opposed to that of theism, or faith.

This is objectively true and true by definition.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Hi, could you try replying to my post as a whole and not as disparate sentences.

Your posts come across as a set of disparate sentences that are all tangential and missing the point.

And if you think I have missed the point as to what is being discussed, how about you explaining what you are actually talking about?

I've had a look back at a few of my posts. I see no problem with them. There's only a certain amount of typing I want to do and I will do it on my own terms! 😀

Originally posted by googlefudge
You seem to me to be advocating a relativism of beliefs such that nobody can criticise anyone else for what they believe because everyone's beliefs are equally valid.

You and robbie (and I) can criticize the validity of others' beliefs as much as we want. I do not believe that everyone's beliefs are equally valid.

Originally posted by FMF
Your posts come across as a set of disparate sentences that are all tangential and missing the point.

Well they are not, and reading them as such is probably where you are missing my point.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Well they are not, and reading them as such is probably where you are missing my point.

I am dismissing your point not missing it.

Originally posted by googlefudge
It doesn't matter to what?.

That was a typo, the word 'matter' was missing, twice. It does not matter whether you do or don't believe in a creator. And it does not matter whether you do or don't believe in evolution. To believe that life was originated by a creator and then evolved does not involve one belief "excluding" the other, regardless of your views on the origin of life or on science more generally.

Originally posted by FMF
That was a typo, the word 'matter' was missing, twice. It does not matter whether you do or don't believe in a creator. And it does not matter whether you do or don't believe in evolution. To believe that life was originated by a creator and then evolved does not involve one belief "excluding" the other, regardless of your views on the origin of life or on science more generally.

Well that is evidently not true.

Belief in life being originated by a creator requires faith based belief.

Science is diametrically opposed to and contradictory to faith based belief.

Thus to believe in a creator starting life off [faith] and then the process of evolution taking
that life from simple forms to today's diversity of life [evidence based science] involves
mutually contradictory philosophies and beliefs systems.

They may appear to be compatible on the surface, but the underlying principles and
world views are diametrically opposed.


They are contradictory and thus it is reasonable to point out that they are contradictory as
an argument against holding both beliefs.