Chance or by Design ?

Originally posted by googlefudge
You keep asserting that as true.

I disagree.

To resolve this we need to discus WHY you think that that statement is true and why I think it's false.

Which is what I am trying to do.

Try by all means. All I am getting from you is that you personally don't find certain things "valid". You simply have not shown how a theist's belief that a creator created the process that we know as evolution, is "contradictory". You have stated that it is not in your view "valid" but not how it is "contradictory".

Originally posted by googlefudge
And?

Belief that god [b]created the universe and/or started of life in it, is creationism.

There are many forms of creationism, including the extremes of YEC that robbie and
RJHinds espouse.

But still, any belief that a deity or deities created the universe and/or life in it falls
under the umbrella of beliefs that carry the label creationism.[/b]

OK, well the theory of evolution clearly contradicts the literal "creationism" said by some to be depicted by Genesis. But the theory of evolution still works fine even if someone believes that the process was created or initiated by a creator.

Originally posted by FMF
Try by all means. All I am getting from you is that you personally don't find certain things "valid". You simply have not shown how a theist's belief that a creator created the process that we know as evolution, is "contradictory". You have stated that it is not in your view "valid" but not how it is "contradictory".

I have actually explained it but you evidently missed it.

However...


Creationism, belief in a creator of the universe and life in it, is a faith based belief.

Believing in creationism REQUIRES accepting faith as a valid method of forming a belief.


Science is by design opposed to and does not allow belief in anything based on faith.

In the scientific world view all beliefs must be evidence based and justifiable and cannot
be based wholly or in part on faith.

Evolution is a scientific theory, and as such is part of the faith rejecting world view of science.



To believe in both creationism and evolution means believing in ideas based on faith AND science.

Faith and Science contradict and are incompatible.


Thus belief in creationism and evolution is also contradictory and incompatible.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Thus belief in creationism and evolution is also contradictory and incompatible.

No it isn't. Whether you personally endorse a theist's reasons for believing that evolution is true is besides the point. That one belief is arrived at in a different way from another does not necessarily make them contradictory.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Faith and Science contradict and are incompatible.

Not so. A theist could believe in evolution based on scientific facts in so far as they are able to understand them, and then simply have faith in the theory beyond that - and attribute the whole thing, facts and claims and conjecture and all, to a creator. A theist could believe in evolution because of science but then have to rely on faith to believe in abiogenesis if the science was not convincing. Such beliefs would involve no contradiction.

Originally posted by FMF
No it isn't. Whether you personally endorse a theist's reasons for believing that evolution is true is besides the point. That one belief is arrived at in a different way from another does not necessarily make them contradictory.

You are missing my point.

The theory of evolution and creationism are INHERENTLY contradictory.

I don't give a rats arse how a given person justifies why they believe in evolution and creationism.

The two beliefs are inherently and irrevocably contradictory because one is science [evidence and
reason] based and the other is faith based.


My 'personal opinion' is not the point, I am talking about objective, rational, logical, truths.

In the same way that people who say that the world is flat are wrong not because I say so but because
the world is simply not in reality flat, they are objectively and demonstrably wrong...

The people who believe in evolution and creationism are believing in ideas that are inherently and
objectively incompatible and contradictory.

So stop saying that this is just my opinion and thus irrelevant because that's not my argument.

My opinion is irrelevant.

This is objectively true and that's what I am arguing.

If you disagree then deal with that.

Originally posted by googlefudge
The theory of evolution and creationism are INHERENTLY contradictory.

No they aren't. A theist can believe that the process of evolution was created. There's no "contradiction" involved.

Originally posted by FMF
Not so. A theist could believe in evolution based on scientific facts in so far as they are able to understand them, and then simply have faith in the theory beyond that - and attribute the whole thing, facts and claims and conjecture and all, to a creator. A theist could believe in evolution because of science but then have to rely on faith to believe in abiogenesis if the science was not convincing. Such beliefs would involve no contradiction.

You're not listening.

Science does not permit ANY faith based beliefs. period.

If you believe in something based on the science and also believe something based on faith
then you are believing things based on two contradictory and incompatible world views.


People can and do partition up their beliefs into "things I believe based on evidence" and
"things I believe based on faith" however those two methodologies are mutually contradictory
and incompatible.

If you are prepared to believe based on faith "belief without and despite evidence" then you have
no valid reason for believing other things based on evidence. If you can ignore some evidence why
should you rationally accept any evidence? You are simply picking and choosing.

If you believe based on science where every belief must be supported by evidence and ALL evidence
must be accounted for and none discounted or ignored then you can't accept any beliefs based on faith.

Originally posted by googlefudge
The two beliefs are inherently and irrevocably contradictory because one is science [evidence and
reason] based and the other is faith based.

That the beliefs are arrived at in different ways does not necessarily make them contradictory.

Originally posted by FMF
No they aren't. A theist can believe that the process of evolution was created. There's no "contradiction" involved.

They can believe that but they would be wrong.

In scientific terms that's total nonsense.

If that is what they believe they DON'T understand or believe in the theory of evolution.

Originally posted by googlefudge
If you believe in something based on the science and also believe something based on faith then you are believing things based on two contradictory and incompatible world views.

The world views might be totally different from each other, but it does not mean that a combination of beliefs taken from each results in something contradictory. Of course, it can. But it doesn't have to.

Originally posted by FMF
Thee world views might be totally different from each other, but it does not mean that a combination of beliefs taken from each results in something contradictory.

Yes it does.

they are not just different world views.

They are contradictory and mutually exclusive world views.


Science Specifically and Absolutely rejects the belief of ANYTHING based on faith.


If you accept the methods of science then you MUST reject faith.

If you accept faith then you haven't accepted the methods of science.


If you don't accept the methods of science then why the hell are you accepting any of it's findings?

Originally posted by googlefudge
You're not listening.

Science does not permit ANY faith based beliefs. period.

If you believe in something based on the science and also believe something based on faith
then you are believing things based on two contradictory and incompatible world views.


People can and do partition up their beliefs into "things I believe based on evidence" ted for and none discounted or ignored then you can't accept any beliefs based on faith.

Science, according to you allows atheist evolution. Atheism and evolution are both faith based beliefs.

Originally posted by googlefudge
They can believe [that the process of evolution was created] but they would be wrong. In scientific terms that's total nonsense.

The fact that you disagree with them is neither here nor there.

Originally posted by googlefudge
They are contradictory and mutually exclusive world views.

Believing that a creator initiated the process we call evolution does not involve a "contradiction". You can criticize it for being a fantasy. Or impossible. Or "invalid". Whatever you want. But the creator bit in 'a creator initiating the process we call evolution' does not "contradict" the evolution bit, just as the evolution bit in 'a creator initiating the process we call evolution' does not "contradict" the creator bit.