Chance or by Design ?

Originally posted by googlefudge
Actually it's the whole point of the argument.

It is not. robbie contends that you either believe in a creator or you believe in evolution; you can't believe in both because they are opposites. In fact countless millions think that one was the cause of the other. So, if they do, where does that leave robbie's assertion? I am not talking about whether you think belief in a creator is valid.

Originally posted by googlefudge
Thus to believe in a creator starting life off [faith] and then the process of evolution taking that life from simple forms to today's diversity of life [evidence based science] involves mutually contradictory philosophies and beliefs systems..

No it doesn't. Whether you endorse a theist's philosophical reason for believing that evolution is evidently true is besides the point. If a person believes that a creator created the process of evolution how is it relevant whether you are able to squeeze them into your perception of philosophy or not?

Originally posted by FMF
It is not. robbie contends that you either believe in a creator or you believe in evolution; you can't believe in both because they are opposites. In fact countless millions think that one was the cause of the other. So, if they do, where does that leave robbie's assertion? I am not talking about whether you think belief in a creator is valid.

What robbie actually said was ...

so there are people who believe in a creator and the theory of evolution so what?
there are also people who believe in fairies, UFO's, aliens, parallel universes, it doesn't
mean that their beliefs have any validation and as you have not explained how its
possible that belief in a creator is harmonious with belief in evolution my premise
stands that the two are mutually exclusive, ...

Which clearly indicates that he was saying that while it's possible (obviously) for people
to believe in a creator and the theory of evolution, that doesn't mean that holding both
beliefs is reasonable.


The number of people who believe in both says absolutely nothing about how reasonable
or valid such belief is.


In exactly the same way that the number of people who believe in a flat Earth says nothing about
the reasonable ness or validity of belief in a flat Earth.



robbie's point, and mine, is that belief in creation and evolution requires contradictory beliefs and
is thus not valid...

If that isn't what you are talking about then what the hell is your point?

Because that is what we are talking about.

Originally posted by FMF
No it doesn't. Whether you endorse a theist's philosophical reason for believing that evolution is evidently true is besides the point. If a person believes that a creator created the process of evolution how is it relevant whether you are able to squeeze them into your perception of philosophy or not?

It's not besides the point.

It is the entire point.

The point I am trying to make is that why you believe something and whether those
reasons for belief are contradictory IS relevant.

Now whether or not you agree is a different matter but this IS the point we are [trying]
to argue about.

Originally posted by JS357
Any worthwhile exploration of this topic must encounter the weak anthropic principle:

quote:

Roger Penrose explained the weak form as follows:

"The argument can be used to explain why the conditions happen to be just right for the existence of (intelligent) life on the earth at the present time. For if they were not just right, then we should not ally adapted to them whereas it is they who adapted, where and when the situation allowed.

That is, it is not remarkable that "we" are here, now. Any group of beings that has the capability (thanks to the arrangement of physical constants, etc.) will be tempted to consider the situation specially adapted to them whereas it is they who adapted, where and when the situation allowed.

Any group of beings that has the capability (thanks to the arrangement of physical constants, etc.) ?

Hmmm. Any group of beings like WHO ? Who else with such a consciousness about their own existence in the universe, might you point to ?

Maybe your view would have a bit more force when we discover another civilization of beings out there in the universe, (if ever).

And the "tempting" I think is not in an anthropic view which considers the good fortune of these "coincidences". Rather the "tempting" is the arrogance to wants to credit we humans for everything. Ie. the good fit is all and only due to our adoptability.


I understand your viewing the matter from another angle. But I don't agree.

Originally posted by googlefudge
robbie's point, and mine, is that belief in creation and evolution requires contradictory beliefs and is thus not valid....

A person believing that a creator created the process of evolution does not necessitate any "mutually exclusive" beliefs. That is the point. Your views [or mine for that matter] on God or on evolution really do not come into play. Nor does whether you and robbie think that believing 'a creator created evolution' is "valid" or "invalid".

Originally posted by googlefudge
It's not besides the point.

Your views on the "validity" of theists' belief in evolution are not the point at all. Nor is my view on their "validity. To believe that life was originated by a creator and then evolved does not involve one belief "excluding" the other, as I have said.

Originally posted by FMF
A person believing that a creator created the process of evolution does not necessitate any "mutually exclusive" beliefs. That is the point. Your views [or mine for that matter] on God or on evolution really do not come into play. Nor does whether you and robbie think that believing 'a creator created evolution' is "valid" or "invalid".

Oh for crying out loud...


How can you possibly determine whether or not creationism and evolution involve contradictory
beliefs if you wont allow analysis of the beliefs and world views inherent in and associated with
creationism and evolution.


How and why people believe in creationism and evolution, and what those beliefs actually entail
is absolutely relevant.

Originally posted by FMF
Your views on the "validity" of theists' belief in evolution are not the point at all. Nor is my view on their "validity. To believe that life was originated by a creator and then evolved does not involve one belief "excluding" the other, as I have said.

Yes you keep saying it, and you are wrong every time.

I am trying to discuss WHY you are wrong.

Originally posted by googlefudge
The point I am trying to make is that why you believe something and whether those reasons for belief are contradictory IS relevant.

Regardless of your beliefs with regard to there being [or not being] a creator, the belief that a creator created evolution [and perhaps everything else too] is not "contradictory".

Originally posted by googlefudge
I am trying to discuss WHY you are wrong.

That is of course your prerogative.

Originally posted by FMF
Regardless of your beliefs with regard to there being [or not being] a creator, the belief that a creator created evolution [and perhaps everything else too] is not "contradictory".

You keep asserting that as true.

I disagree.

To resolve this we need to discus WHY you think that that statement is true and why I think it's false.

Which is what I am trying to do.

Keeping repeating the assertion that we disagree about is getting us nowhere.

Originally posted by FMF
That is of course your prerogative.

Well if you are not open to debating the position we are done.

Originally posted by googlefudge
How can you possibly determine whether or not creationism and evolution involve contradictory beliefs if you wont allow analysis of the beliefs and world views inherent in and associated with creationism and evolution.

I haven't used the word "creationism". Not once.

Originally posted by FMF
I haven't used the word "creationism". Not once.

And?

Belief that god created the universe and/or started of life in it, is creationism.

There are many forms of creationism, including the extremes of YEC that robbie and
RJHinds espouse.

But still, any belief that a deity or deities created the universe and/or life in it falls
under the umbrella of beliefs that carry the label creationism.