16 Jan 15
Originally posted by Great King RatI am not disputing the right of the Charlie Hebdos of this world to publish cartoons that may offend. I am more interested in why you think the right thing to do now is to be even more offensive when they have already succeeded in offending everybody they wanted to insult.
The right for the Charlie Hebdos of this world to publish cartoons that may offend should be indisputable. The only way to do this is to keep publishing – offending, if you will.
16 Jan 15
Originally posted by FMFDon't expect perfection unless you want to be disappointed. 😏
I found Americans in large part to be silent about the curtailment of freedom of speech in its economic interests zone of South America for decades and other places where it had cooperating tyrannies in place like Indonesia 1965-1998. Personally, I'd say a "very American" thing I have observed over the years is the sometimes wide gap between its rhetoric and its ...[text shortened]... hen it has tried to export and impose "very American" stuff. Do we agree on this "big topic"? 🙂
16 Jan 15
Originally posted by Great King RatI am interested in what you claim is the "only way" forward in the promotion of freedom of speech around the world. My view is laid out in the long post of mine on page 1 which you've not really touched on. I support the right of cartoonists to be offensive but I don't see them as being impressive advocates for the furthering of human rights around the world. I think they set the cause back. Unless you can explain it better to me, I think your 'now be even harsher' suggestion would set the cause back even more.
Which parts do you not agree with, FMF?
16 Jan 15
Originally posted by C HessWould you claim that your attitude ~ if put into action ~ would be the quickest and most effective way to promote the essential nature of the freedom of speech in parts of the world where its roots do not yet go deep or where it's not enforced robustly or consistently?
I agree. Muslims must be made to understand that their particular beliefs are not sacrosanct in any way. If they want to believe that a pedophilic warlord is the wisest and most important human that ever lived, they're entitled to that belief, but I shouldn't have to screen my wording just to not upset someone. If they believe that you'll go to hell for drawi ...[text shortened]... ures of whatever the hell pleases me. Well, I would, if I could draw without being ridiculed. 😕
16 Jan 15
Originally posted by SuzianneYou cannot kill just because someone insulted your religion, your mother, yourself, your family; to me, this is the fine line😵
I've been observing this phenomenon in the media since the killings in Paris hit the airwaves. There seems to be mainly one camp of thought on this, and it has the well-meaning umbrella of "freedom of speech" especially among journalists. I, for one, do believe in "freedom of speech", since I am American and this is spelled out in our First Amendment to t ...[text shortened]... ehind a magazine who has made it their business to make fun of others because of their religion.
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16 Jan 15
Originally posted by FMFI don't think it's possible to spread a freedom of speech mentality by abstaining its use when it's needed.
Would you claim that your attitude ~ if put into action ~ would be the quickest and most effective way to promote the essential nature of the freedom of speech in parts of the world where its roots do not yet go deep or where it's not enforced robustly or consistently?
16 Jan 15
Originally posted by FMFYes
Out here in parts of the world that are rather different from the justifiably outraged and grieving France, when it comes to struggling for and coaxing a recognition of basic human rights from those in power, if you will forgive us, we will not start with “the right to be offensive”.
There is also the freedom to speak out without fear of reprisals in court c ...[text shortened]... s are discredited and kept at a longer arms length for that much longer. And that is tragic too.
16 Jan 15
Originally posted by KellyJayThe people committing the atrocities are also killing entire villages because they think differently. That alone gives us the right to condemn them any way we can and if it is a political cartoon so be it.
I agree with you about respect it should be our goal, but I have to say that
everyone should have the right to opine, complain, and belittle. Now that
said we also have the right to do the same to those that do that to us. If
we do not allow for it we leave free speech! It is not free speech because I
like everything that is said, it is free because we ...[text shortened]... own. I wonder why more were not upset with the IRS going after
people for their points of view?
Those people only deserve to get the reward they so desperately want:
Death.
They call them sleeper cells. They should be called by their right name:
Cancer cells.
16 Jan 15
1 edit
Originally posted by C HessI agree it's needed by Europeans, and in this case European cartoonists; I support their rights, as I have said. But it's needed for all manner of other things too in the parts of the world I mentioned. Is your way the quickest and most effective way to promote it there and everywhere?
I don't think it's possible to spread a freedom of speech mentality by abstaining its use when it's needed.
16 Jan 15
Originally posted by sonhouseWell we agree, I see them more like rabid dogs that cannot be trusted.
The people committing the atrocities are also killing entire villages because they think differently. That alone gives us the right to condemn them any way we can and if it is a political cartoon so be it.
Those people only deserve to get the reward they so desperately want:
Death.
They call them sleeper cells. They should be called by their right name:
Cancer cells.
Can they turn around, yes.
I take no pleasure in seeing even them killed, but they cannot do the things
they are doing and not receive what their deeds call for.
16 Jan 15
6 edits
Originally posted by SuzianneThe seeds of these killings go much further than the mere portrayal and mocking of religious figures in a magazine.
I've been observing this phenomenon in the media since the killings in Paris hit the airwaves. There seems to be mainly one camp of thought on this, and it has the well-meaning umbrella of "freedom of speech" especially among journalists. I, for one, do believe in "freedom of speech", since I am American and this is spelled out in our First Amendment to t ...[text shortened]... ehind a magazine who has made it their business to make fun of others because of their religion.
Paris is surrounded by slums of disenfranchised North Africans. The French government brutally killed in the Algerian war 1.5 million people. Religious hypocrisy as pointed out by Duchess64 permeates Europe. Corporate Americas interventionist policies including support and training of militant Islamic fundamentalists has fomented violence and left untold misery and grievances among local populations.. The vacuum created by the eight and half years of the occupation of Iraq and the destruction of the Iraqi army which has left a huge void filled by the Islamic state. Drones which kill innocent women and children by remote control.
You cannot keep killing people like this and expect them not to fight back.
Yes its lamentable that freedom of speech has been violated and yes its unacceptable that people have lost their lives in the pursuit of freedom of speech, but the issues are much greater than a magazine which promotes often racist and anti Islamic propaganda.
I am reminded of the words of Robert Marley, 'every day the bucket goes to the well, one day the bottom will drop out'.
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16 Jan 15
Originally posted by FMFTo be honest, I don't know. Right now, I think it's important to up the insults (as long as they make a point), so as to show extremist muslims that over here in Europe we don't succumb to violence. If it's the most efficient way to get through to them, I don't know. Probably not.
I agree it's needed by Europeans, and in this case European cartoonists; I support their rights, as I have said. But it's needed for all manner of other things too in the parts of the world I mentioned. Is your way the quickest and most effective way to promote it there and everywhere?