Charlie Hebdo

Originally posted by Suzianne
I'm not really sure I've heard any Christians say either of these two things at all. At least not in my church.

Again, this is the error many who do not embrace religion make. Just because one evil man makes statements of hate towards his fellow man, doesn't mean that suddenly, all who embrace that man's religion are as guilty. No religion on Earth ha ...[text shortened]... Some belong to that church, some do not. That doesn't make the church the instrument of evil.

If religion cannot be blamed for followers who do evil in it's name it cannot
take credit for followers who do good in it's name.

The problem with religion [any and all faith based positions] is that people
can believe and justify ANY position based on faith/religion.

And that position cannot be rationally argued against or negotiated because
it is not believed rationally and/or "is an unchanging holy tenet handed down
by god and cannot be questioned" ect...


The Problem in this particular instance is that the religion has a quite clear
taboo about images of the prophet.
And while I understand that the Koran itself doesn't instruct people to kill
those that break this taboo, there are stories attributed to the prophet in
which he pretty explicitly asks his followers to kill someone for breaking this
taboo and then congratulates those that do kill this person.

This taboo, strongly held by this faith, is in direct conflict with the values
of western society which value freedom of speech and expression. As well
as the values of secularism which are fundamental to much of our law and
thinking. Even if people don't know it.

And there cannot be a reasonable meeting of the minds on this, because their
taboo is a non-negotiable tenet of faith...
And our beliefs are non-negotiable facets of our society and culture.

There is no happy halfway on this issue, either we stop breaking their taboo,
or they stop caring that we beak their taboo.

And those two options are unacceptable to either side.

For us because we know the value of free speech and freedom of and from religion.
And the bedrock that forms in our society.

And for them** because the taboo is a non-negotiable part of their religion believed
on faith with no rational basis.

EDIT: ** I want to clarify. Not all those who claim the label "Muslim" will/do hold to these
beliefs. I am specifically talking about the subset that does. I apologise for not making
this clearer.



One last thing.

Race, ethnicity, sexuality, gender... these are all innate to a person, and not up for choice.
It is not tolerable to allow people to be discriminated against or persecuted or ridiculed for
features they have no choice or control over. This is why even in the face of the value of
free speech we routinely censor those who are racist, sexist, homophobic, ect...
We also censor those who argue for violence against others, or other violations of important
laws.

However.

Religion is not an innate property of a person. It is a belief system.
And where belief systems [of any kind] are wrong and harmful, they should be ridiculed.

However while I [and others] ridicule faith based beliefs, including yours, we are not
necessarily ridiculing you [although some might do that as well].

You are not your beliefs, even though they may well be very personal and strongly held.

And your beliefs, and others like them, can be ridiculed independently of whether you are
being ridiculed.

You typically take any ridiculing of your religion as ridiculing of you.

This is not necessarily the case.


Although even then, a person holding ridiculous beliefs may also deserve ridicule.

Originally posted by moonbus
"The Problem in this particular instance is that the religion has a quite clear
taboo about images of the prophet. "

Nothing problematic about this at all. It applies only to Muslims. Just as the prohibition against eating pork applies only to Jews and the prohibition against eating beef applies only to Hindus, and so on. Jews don't get upset, much less murder people, because some gentile eats bacon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yigal_Amir

Interesting but not relevant to the point.