Charlie Hebdo

Originally posted by Suzianne
I'm not 100% sure, but I've heard that Islam is against showing any sort of "graven images" of people. This is generally regarded as even photographs. I think the intended meaning of this is to avoid people worshipping the images of people as idols. This has widely been circulated as the reason why chess sets from Islamic countries or cultures do not sho ...[text shortened]... t speaking as an authority on Islam, so grain of salt and all that, but this is what I've heard.

Yes, I too have heard these stories many times, but it's after the Paris shootings that I heard that this is not actually the case for many Muslim's beliefs. I suppose FMF knows a bit about this seeing how he lives in Indonesia.

It's a pity that there are no Muslims on this forum.

Originally posted by Suzianne
BUT, could you treat him as you would like to be treated?

How about if he lost his home, through no fault of his own? Could you take him and his family into your home and care for them through their time of difficulty? Would you not appreciate such an action from him?

Using "love" in this sense doesn't "cheapen" the word. It raises the importance o ...[text shortened]... of the word "love". To "love" your fellow man, AS YOU LOVE YOURSELF, is the entire point here.

As we speak there are quite a few people living on the streets. How many of those are currently living under your roof?

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Yes, I too have heard these stories many times, but it's after the Paris shootings that I heard that this is not actually the case for many Muslim's beliefs. I suppose FMF knows a bit about this seeing how he lives in Indonesia.

It's a pity that there are no Muslims on this forum.

I don't live in one of the ghastly regimes/ghastly of the Middle East; I live in the relatively moderate Indonesia. I've never seen a picture of any kind of Muhammed here. I've no idea what has been said or who has said it. Perhaps those who are saying that it's not insulting to Muslims for the prophet's likeness to be portrayed are those non-Muslims who are insisting that the cartoons were not insulting.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't live in one of the ghastly regimes/ghastly of the Middle East; I live in the relatively moderate Indonesia. I've never seen a picture of any kind of Muhammed here. I've no idea what has been said or who has said it. Perhaps those who are saying that it's not insulting to Muslims for the prophet's likeness to be portrayed are those non-Muslims who are insisting that the cartoons were not insulting.

http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-01-15/you-cant-draw-muhammad-unless-youre-one-many-muslim-artists-who-did

Originally posted by Suzianne
That you do NOT seem to understand (or maybe you do, and are just "giving me the piss" ) that I fully understand what I write (unlike some others in this forum) is the problem here and my point (my actual point, not my "misunderstanding" (as characterized by you) to shift emphasis from my point) stands, if you would care to look past the opportunity to bad- ...[text shortened]... And that, of course, has nothing to do with how he "comes across" to anybody, least of all you.

You come across like a disagreeable harpy. But you already knew that.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-01-15/you-cant-draw-muhammad-unless-youre-one-many-muslim-artists-who-did

I see the two 14th century images and the 16th century one. It appears it's a cultural thing then rather than, strictly speaking, a religious one, which would explain why you don't see any depictions in the culture in which I live. This does not affect CH's right to insult Muslims though.

Originally posted by FMF
I see the two 14th century images and the 16th century one. It appears it's a cultural thing then rather than, strictly speaking, a religious one, which would explain why you don't see any depictions in the culture in which I live. This does not affect CH's right to insult Muslims though.

No, it certainly doesn't affect any Muslim's right to feel insulted by somebody drawing a cartoon 😀

For the record: I fully support the right of Muslims to feel insulted.

Originally posted by FMF
So they have to end up with more or less the same sensitivities, sensibilities and sense of decency as you? That is the purpose of the exercise of freedom of speech in your view? These hundreds of millions of Muslims have been insulted and have done nothing. What more do you want from them? You want them to have the same opinion as you as to what is and isn't offensive?

Yes, I think my worldview when it comes to perceiving what is insulting is better than that of a bunch of pussy Muslims who feel insulted, or gosh... even "deeply offended" because of a cartoon. As such, if the world population would end up having my sense of sensitivities, sensibilities and decency rather than that of "deeply offended" mr. and mrs. Muslim, the world would be a better place.

Originally posted by FMF
Did he call for the extermination of the Jews? Is your source CH or some other critic of his views or did he indeed propose genocide? I don't know the answers. You tell me.

From wikipedia:

In 1982, soon after a terrorist attack had taken place on Jews in Paris, Siné gave an interview on the radio during which he stated: "Yes, I am anti-Semitic and I am not scared to admit it [...] I want all Jews to live in fear, unless they are pro-Palestinian. Let them die." He later apologised for his comments.

"Call for extermination" would probably be somewhat of an exaggeration.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
Yes, I think my worldview when it comes to perceiving what is insulting is better than that of a bunch of pussy Muslims who feel insulted, or gosh... even "deeply offended" because of a cartoon. As such, if the world population would end up having my sense of sensitivities, sensibilities and decency rather than that of "deeply offended" mr. and mrs. Muslim, the world would be a better place.

I get where you are coming from. You are being lucid. As for me, I am grateful that the different parts of the world I have travelled around and lived in were not homogenized in the way you seem to think would be ideal.

Originally posted by FMF
I get where you are coming from. You are being lucid. As for me, I am grateful that the different parts of the world I have travelled around and lived in were not homogenized in the way you seem to think would be ideal.

I wholeheartedly support your right to champion this lack of homogenization which leads to lawmakers actually further restricting the freedom of press and speech after that same freedom has been brutally attacked in a very different part of the world.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
I wholeheartedly support your right to champion this lack of homogenization which leads to lawmakers actually further restricting the freedom of press and speech after that same freedom has been brutally attacked in a very different part of the world.

No, I do not support restrictions of freedom of speech based on what people find offensive. I just find your idea that everybody should have the same opinions about what is and isn't insulting all around the world to be a notion or ideal that I cannot subscribe to. I tend to agree with what BigDoggProblem said to you on page 5.

Originally posted by FMF
No, I do not support restrictions of freedom of speech based on what people find offensive. I just find your idea that everybody should have the same opinions about what is and isn't insulting all around the world to be a notion or ideal that I cannot subscribe to. I tend to agree with what BigDoggProblem said to you on page 5.

I am afraid my post on page 5 was not worded carefully enough. I used the word 'right', and it got mistaken for a legal right rather than a moral right.

I do think that people have a legal right to tell other people what should and should not offend them. (And they have a right to tell that person to go pound sand.)

What he was proposing I found creepy, and a form of thought control. I instinctively recoiled from the idea upon reading it. That approach won't win anyone's hearts and minds - quite the opposite.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
I am afraid my post on page 5 was not worded carefully enough. I used the word 'right', and it got mistaken for a legal right rather than a moral right.

I do think that people have a legal right to tell other people what should and should not offend them. (And they have a right to tell that person to go pound sand.)

What he ...[text shortened]... he idea upon reading it. That approach won't win anyone's hearts and minds - quite the opposite.

"... go pound sand." lol One of my wife Evelyn's favorite expressions when someone would try to talk nonsense and/or bs.

Originally posted by BigDoggProblem
What he was proposing I found creepy, and a form of thought control. I instinctively recoiled from the idea upon reading it. That approach won't win anyone's hearts and minds - quite the opposite.

Agreed.