29 Sep 13
And Christ said:
Matt 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
John 5:28-29 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.
29 Sep 13
Originally posted by Rajk999Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
(Romans 3:29-30 NKJV)
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, ... Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.
(Romans 4:5, 16 NKJV)
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
(Romans 5:1-2, 18 NKJV)
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.
(Galatians 2:15-16 NKJV)
And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”
But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
(Galatians 3:8-9, 11, 22-25 NKJV)
HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!
The Instructor
29 Sep 13
Originally posted by RJHindsWhereas I accept that both passages are correct ie that there is justification by faith AND justification by works ..
[b]Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.
(Romans 3:29-30 NKJV)
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, ... Therefore it is of faith that i ...[text shortened]... 25 NKJV)
HalleluYah !!! Praise the LORD! Glory be to God! Holy! Holy! Holy!
The Instructor
You on the other hand believe in justification by faith only.
If you read Romans 5 Paul goes into great lengths to explain what he means by justification by faith. Paul certainly does not imply that all you have to do is to claim you have faith in Christ and then you get eternal life. That is far from the truth.
Because Adam sinned there came upon mankind sin in the flesh or inherited sin. So even though a man is righteous he is still condemned to death. But becuase of the sacrifice of Christ now mankind has a chance [[through faith and through following Christ [which is the good works]] of obtaining salvation. The works of the Law means the works of the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses cannot save anyone. Christ saves and Christ's law of love and charity must be followed otherwise there can be no salvation.
Instead of talking like a parrot try to understand what Paul is saying. The words of Paul and Christ go together and only when you understand both, then you will get the whole picture and only then can you get eternal life.
Faith with your mouth = damnation
Faith and works = eternal life.
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29 Sep 13
3 edits
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe Trinity is strongly implied in the very first verses of the Bible.
the Triune God - give it up!
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." (Gen. 1:1)
The Recovery Version study note reads -
Heb. Elohim, meaning the Mighty One. The Hebrew name here is plural, but the verb created is singular. Furthermore, in v. 26 the plural pronouns Us and Our are used in reference to God, whereas in v. 27 the pronouns He and His are used. These are seeds of the Trinity. God is one (Isa. 45:5; 1 Cor. 8:4; 1 Tim. 2:5), but He is also three - the Father, the Son, and the Spirit (Matt. 28:19). He is the Triune God. It was the Triune God who created.
Give up the Triune God ? Never. How can I? The Triune God will never give up on His saved saints.
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29 Sep 13
Originally posted by checkbaiter
I agree wholeheartedly that this is much more important.
To be divine life to us God is triune. There is the Source of the Divine life - the Father. There is the course of the Divine life - the Son. And there is the flow, the transmission of that life - the Holy Spirit.
So what God does can never be disassociated with what God is. He is three-one for His operation to dispense from Himself into man His own eternal life and His own divine nature.
Since this is the eternal purpose of God it is indicted in the first pages of His revelation that He is mysteriously three-one.
However, having said that, if you are saying one must believe/receive the "Trinity, I will pass on this discussion.
I don't think one had to be well versed in the triunity of God to be saved. You confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
I think a disciple should want to grow in understanding. God desires all men to be saved. But not only to be saved but to come to the full knowledge of the truth as well.
" ... our Savior God, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the full knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim. 2:3b,4)
Being conversant on the Father - Son - Holy Spirit God may not be a requirement of salvation. It is desirable that we come to the full knowledge of the truth as we mature, as we grow. Right ?
The bible says believe on the Son of God, which I do.
Wonderful. Me too. There is no reason to oppose that the one Name is really "Father - Son - Holy Spirit". For that is the one name into whom Jesus said we are to be immersed.
And I do not mean just a ceremony. We should be immersed into the Person - that is the Name of the three-one God. His [singular] name is really Father - Son - Holy Spirit (Matthew 28:20).
In early Genesis the seeds of this mysterious nature of God are sown. We see the plural of Elohim and the singular of the action create in the very first verse of the Bible.
And we see God saying "Let Us make man in Our image ..." Yet God created man in His image (singular). See Genesis 1:26,27.
The first day of salvation these truths may not be required to be comphrehended. As we grow in enlightenment they become important.
I believe Jesus is the Son of God, God is his Father, and God has given His Son all authority in heaven and earth and to be head over His church, of which I believe I am a part.
Amen. Me too. I believe these things too.
Nowhere does the bible state one must believe in a "Triune God" to be saved.
So just being "saved" is all you think is important ?
Is just getting your "ticket" that reads "Admit One" - that is all you ever care about ?
Doesn't it also depend upon how saved is saved ? You can be forgiven for eternity for eternal redemption - saved from the lake of fire. But God's purpose is to cause you to grow in life, be transformed into the image of Christ, sanctified and conformed to His image, and built up into oneness in His Body the church.
You can say "I don't need the Trinity for the bare minimum of being a Christian." Maybe. I am not sure that if you cannot see Jesus is God to you you can be saved. But if you touch Jesus and know you have touched God you have to wonder why God the Father is called God ? You have to soon realize that something mysterious is going on here.
You didn't know God until you touched JESUS. And JESUS speaks so much about the Father. So right away, without theological terminology, I think you begin to realize something rather mysterious about your experience with God.
I just want to get this out of the way right now.
Bless you brother. However we still have to say "Amen!" I think, when the Bible says for example - "Now the Lord is the Spirit" (2 Cor. 3:17) [/b]
The Lord there is God. And the Lord there is the Lord Jesus Christ -
"For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord ..." (2 Cor. 4:5)
But Paul has just told us in chapter 3 verse 17 that "the Lord is the Spirit".
So the Holy Spirit is the Lord Jesus Christ in another form. So if we coin a phrase "Triune God" there is no reason to be alarmed.
The facts of the Bible are that the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God.
I submit to the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, I am filled with holy spirit
Are you afraid to capitalize "Holy Spirit" ? I don't know why you should be. "Now the Lord is the Spirit" . The Lord is Jesus Christ, which we certainly do not shrink from capitalization. The Lord Jesus Christ is the Spirit (2 Cor. 3:17).
It is rather mysterious. But the Lord Jesus Christ is also the Holy Spirit. He is the Spirit in His "pneumatic" form.
In resurrection - this Godman became a life giving Spirit - "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
The seeds of these truths, I hope to show, are indeed in the book of Genesis.
(God's gift at the new birth) and I can operate some of the manifestations of holy spirit which is the power of God dwelling in His people. I do not believe it is a person, but pneuma God's gift.
You get the last word here. Maybe you'll read some of the things I will write about the dispensing of the Triune God in the book of Genesis.
But if not, I understand that you find them at this stage in your Christian life something of a distraction. Personally, I think you'll be benefited. But it is up to you brother.
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29 Sep 13
Originally posted by sonshipFirst of all brother, no, I know being "saved" is only the beginning. I was born again in 1974. Now to Elohim...I agree wholeheartedly that this is much more important.
To be divine life to us God is triune. There is the Source of the Divine life - the Father. There is the course of the Divine life - the Son. And there is the flow, the transmission of that life - the Holy Spirit.
So what God does can never be disassociated with what God is. He ...[text shortened]... omething of a distraction. Personally, I think you'll be benefited. But it is up to you brother.
Genesis 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (KJV)
The word “God” is Elohim, which is itself a plural form and, like most other words, has more than one definition. In this I agree... It is used in a plural sense of “gods” or “men with authority,” and in a singular sense for “God,” “god,” or “a man with authority, such as a judge.” The Hebrew lexicon by Brown, Driver and Briggs, considered to be one of the best available, has as its first usage for Elohim: “rulers, judges, either as divine representatives at sacred places or as reflecting divine majesty and power, divine ones, superhuman beings including God and angels, gods.”
Elohim is translated “gods” in many verses. Genesis 35:2 reads, “Get rid of all the foreign gods you have with you,” and Exodus 18:11 says, “Now I know that the Lord is greater than all other gods.” It is translated “judges” in Exodus 21:6; 22:8 and 9. It is translated “angels” (KJV) or “heavenly beings” (NIV) in Psalm 8:5. That is its plural use, and there is no evidence that anyone thought of these “gods” as having some kind of plurality of persons within themselves.
Elohim is also translated as the singular “god” or “judge,” and there is no hint of any “compound nature” when it is translated that way. An example is Exodus 22:20, which reads, “Whoever sacrifices to any god other than the lord must be destroyed.” Another example is Judges 6:31: “If Baal really is a god, he can defend himself when someone breaks down his altar.” In Exodus 7:1, God says that He has made Moses a “god” (Elohim) to Pharaoh. Again, in Judges 11:24, the pagan god Chemosh is called Elohim, and in 1 Samuel 5:7, the pagan god Dagon is called Elohim, yet Christians do not conclude that those gods were somehow composite or “uniplural,” or that the people who worshipped them thought they were.
Exactly how to translate Elohim in 1 Samuel 2:25 has been debated by scholars. The question is whether Elohim in the verse refers to a human judge or to God. The KJV says “judge.” The versions are divided between them, some translating Elohim as a man, others as God Himself. The fact that the scholars and translators debate about whether the word Elohim refers to a man or God shows vividly that the word itself does not have any inherent idea of a plurality of persons. If it did, it could not be translated as “god” when referring to a pagan god, or as “judge” when referring to a man. The evidence in Scripture does not warrant the conclusion that the Hebrew word Elohim inherently contains the idea of a compound nature.
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Scripture contains no reproof for those who do not believe in a “Triune God.” Those who do not believe in God are called “fools” (Ps. 14:1). Those who reject Christ are condemned (John 3:18). Scripture testifies that it is for “doctrine, reproof, and correction” (2 Tim. 3:16 – KJV), and there are many verses that reprove believers for all kinds of erroneous beliefs and practices. Conspicuous in its absence is any kind of reproof for not believing in the Trinity.
29 Sep 13
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterAbsolutely correct. Here is a nice passage from Paul :
Scripture contains no reproof for those who do not believe in a “Triune God.” Those who do not believe in God are called “fools” (Ps. 14:1). Those who reject Christ are condemned (John 3:18). Scripture testifies that it is for “doctrine, reproof, and correction” (2 Tim. 3:16 – KJV), and there are many verses that reprove believers for all kinds of errone ...[text shortened]... d practices. Conspicuous in its absence is any kind of reproof for not believing in the Trinity.
Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine, (1 Timothy 1:1-3 KJV)
No other doctrine other than that which Paul preached concerning Jesus Christ. Paul himself said of Jesus Christ that God is the head of Jesus. They cannot therefore be equal.
Triune God and Trinity are not doctrines preached by the Apostles.
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29 Sep 13
Originally posted by Rajk999I like this one....
Absolutely correct. Here is a nice passage from Paul :
[i]Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, and Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope; Unto Timothy, my own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord. As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, ...[text shortened]... cannot therefore be equal.
Triune God and Trinity are not doctrines preached by the Apostles.
1 Cor 15:27-28
27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
NKJV
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29 Sep 13
1 edit
Is just getting your "ticket" that reads "Admit One" - that is all you ever care about ?
Sigh...No, that is not all I am interested in, else I would not be having this discussion with you.
We are to grow in Christ, become more like him every day. We are to die to self daily, etc.
Look, I believe that to be saved and just stop there is the stupidest thing a Christian can do!
When I sin and become a servant to it, the devil will have free reign over my life. It is to invite him to ruin my life, give me sickness and disease.
No of course that is not all I care about, but you are implying that to grow in Christ is to accept the Trinity, which has absolutely nothing to do with growth.
There are some Christians that seem obsessed with this doctrine, and for the life of me I do not know why.
These are the weightier matters....
Matt 23:23-24
23 "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. 24 Blind guides, who strain out a gnat and swallow a camel!
NKJV
Now this is law, I understand that. But today is to bond with Jesus Christ and follow his prompting, which includes what he said above.
To grow is to discern his voice in our thoughts, cast down imaginations and bringing every thought into obedience with his.
We are to get our minds off our selves and look at the needs of others, and many more things which we should be doing.
I think too much time time is wasted on trinity evaluation and not on what really matters.
Do you want my opinion? If I was a trinitarian, I would never see a need to even bring the topic up.
Let's just stick to Jesus is Lord, God has highly exalted him and given him the authority that he gave the first Adam, and then some.
Let's just see Jesus as 100% man, whom I could identify with. Much more so than a godman who I cannot identify with.
Heb 12:1-3
12 Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles, and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us. 2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
NIV
29 Sep 13
2 edits
Originally posted by checkbaiterJohn wrote the following:Is just getting your "ticket" that reads "Admit One" - that is all you ever care about ?
Sigh...No, that is not all I am interested in, else I would not be having this discussion with you.
We are to grow in Christ, become more like him every day. We are to die to self daily, etc.
Look, I believe that to be saved and just stop there i ...[text shortened]... ho endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will not grow weary and lose heart.
NIV
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.
(John 1:1-3, 14 NKJV)
Obviously, from the context John is referring to Jesus the Christ. He was in the beginning with God and all things were made through Him. So is He also God, an angel, another god, or just a man?
John records the following converstation of Jesus with the Jews:
Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God. Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel. For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will. For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son, that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.
(John 5:18-23 NKJV)
How is it possible to honor the Son just as we honor the Father without calling them both God? Calling Jesus just a man or angel is defintely not honoring Him (just) as we honor the Father.
John also records the following conversation of Jesus with His disciples:
Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
“If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”
Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is sufficient for us.”
Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works. Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
(John 14:6-9, 26 NKJV)
How does your theology reconcile What Jesus said there? What manner of being is He?
The apostle Paul wrote the following:
Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ. For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power.
(Colossians 2:8-10 NKJV)
How do you explain that?
I could give more examples, but I am sure this is enough for you to get were I am coming from on this. What say you?
The Instructor
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29 Sep 13
Originally posted by RJHindsWe have been over these verses again and again. I am not interested in rehashing it out again. Look at the old posts on trinity , these have already been answered.
John wrote the following:
[b]In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of ...[text shortened]... re this is enough for you to get were I am coming from on this. What say you?
The Instructor
29 Sep 13
Originally posted by checkbaiterThe Questions I asked have never been answered by you, my friend. I know what he Jehovah's Witnesses say, but they are a cult group and are wrong. I want to see your answers in print for the record. Are you afraid?
We have been over these verses again and again. I am not interested in rehashing it out again. Look at the old posts on trinity , these have already been answered.
The Instructor
29 Sep 13
Originally posted by RJHindsLol. Back to finger pointing again. Why to you always revert to saying this or that about the JW's when we really are not the ones discussing this with you?
The Questions I asked have never been answered by you, my friend. I know what he Jehovah's Witnesses say, but they are a cult group and are wrong. I want to see your answers in print for the record. Are you afraid?
The Instructor
So boring Ron. Psssst! We are not the only believers in the Bible that do not accept the trinity.