Christ Distilled

Originally posted by whodey
Look, love demands justice!! So what is the justice for a sinner? We, therefore, require atonement through one Jesus Christ. NOw as to what happens to those who reject such atonement or have never heard, that is up for debate. Why not let God be the judge?

You did not read Romans 2 .. read it. The answer to your question is there.

Originally posted by whodey
.... what about those who have not heard .. What will be their fate?

Paul says very clearly that those who have not heard BUT who have done good works will be judged AND will receive salvation.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Paul says very clearly that those who have not heard BUT who have done good works will be judged AND will receive salvation.

Here is a question for ya. If it were not for the sacrifice on the cross, would anyone be able to be "saved"?

Originally posted by whodey
Here is a question for ya. If it were not for the sacrifice on the cross, would anyone be able to be "saved"?

Here is a question for ya. Are you doubting what Paul said in Romans 2 ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Here is a question for ya. Are you doubting what Paul said in Romans 2 ?

Clearly Paul says that we are not saved by our good works, lest any man should boast. What I am suggesting is that we are saved by the righteousness of God, and not of man. We are then expected to walk in his righteousness, which is not of ourselves.

Originally posted by whodey
Clearly Paul says that we are not saved by our good works, lest any man should boast. What I am suggesting is that we are saved by the righteousness of God, and not of man. We are then expected to walk in his righteousness, which is not of ourselves.

I understand. Accepting Paul's teaching in Romans 2 will totally screw up all your preconceived beliefs.. no problem.
Edit - Actually there is a problem. you are using one of Pauls clear teachings to contradict another of Pauls clear teachings. So in effect you are saying Paul did not know what he was saying.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I understand. Accepting Paul's teaching in Romans 2 will totally screw up all your preconceived beliefs.. no problem.
Edit - Actually there is a problem. you are using one of Pauls clear teachings to contradict another of Pauls clear teachings. So in effect you are saying Paul did not know what he was saying.

Romans 2:14-16 does not necessarily refer to pagan Gentiles (i.e., those who are neither Jewish nor Christian). In fact, it mostly likely does not.

Within the larger context of Paul's theology it is highly doubtful that he meant to say that pagans who both lack the Torah and the blessing of the Holy Spirit (freely given to all those who believe in Jesus Christ) somehow have a natural capacity to know and do what is right, as this would contradict what Paul says in the very next chapter: "Jews and Gentiles... are all under sin; as it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: there is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God" (Rom. 3:9-11).

Clearly, then, since no Gentile is righteous and all are under sin, Paul cannot be referring to pagan Gentiles. More likely what Paul is in fact referring to in Romans 2:14-16 are Christian Gentiles, who have the law "written on their hearts" (a reference to Jeremiah 31:33), who fulfill the law even though they don't possess it. Again, this can be confirmed as part of Paul's theology later in Romans chapter 8, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (v. 4).

I used to understand Romans 2 as you do, Raj, until recently. It is a common misinterpretation.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Romans 2:14-16 does not necessarily refer to pagan Gentiles (i.e., those who are neither Jewish nor Christian). In fact, it mostly likely does not.

Within the larger context of Paul's theology it is highly doubtful that he meant to say that pagans who both lack the Torah and the blessing of the Holy Spirit (freely given to all those who ...[text shortened]... understand Romans 2 as you do, Raj, until recently. It is a common misinterpretation.

It is a common misinterpretation or delusion!

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Romans 2:14-16 does not necessarily refer to pagan Gentiles (i.e., those who are neither Jewish nor Christian). In fact, it mostly likely does not.

Within the larger context of Paul's theology it is highly doubtful that he meant to say that pagans who both lack the Torah and the blessing of the Holy Spirit (freely given to all those who understand Romans 2 as you do, Raj, until recently. It is a common misinterpretation.

Your analysis is based on a number of wrong assumptions.

You say its doubtful".. pagans who both lack the Torah and the blessing of the Holy Spirit somehow have a natural capacity to know and do what is right .."

Therefore, the only people who are able to do good works are Jews and Christians? Really ? Do you have a reference for this statement in the Bible or is it just a personal obervation.

'All are under sin' does not mean someone cannot do good works. We are all under sin and all are capable of good works.

Do you understand what happened when Adam and Eve sinned? Two things :
1. All of Adams descendents inherited sin
2. All of Adams descendents inherited a conscience - the ability to know good from evil.

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
Gen 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
Gen 3:6 ....
Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened ....

Your explanation makes no sense.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Your analysis is based on a number of wrong assumptions.

You say its doubtful".. pagans who both lack the Torah and the blessing of the Holy Spirit somehow have a natural capacity to know and do what is right .."

Therefore, the only people who are able to do good works are Jews and Christians? Really ? Do you have a reference for this statemen Gen 3:7 And the eyes of them both were opened ....[/i]

Your explanation makes no sense.

Therefore, the only people who are able to do good works are Jews and Christians? Really ? Do you have a reference for this statement in the Bible or is it just a personal obervation.

I think Paul is quite clear in stating that neither Jew nor Gentile are righteous (Rom. 3:9-11) whatever their works may appear to be, and only those who have received the Spirit of God (i.e., Christians) truly fulfill the righteousness of the law (Rom. 8:4).

All of Adams descendents inherited a conscience - the ability to know good from evil.

Why should we assume that the possession of a conscience also imparts the ability to fulfill the law of God? The only necessary implication of inheriting a conscience from Adam and Eve is the experience of guilt (assuming we've simultaneously inherited a sinful nature).

Originally posted by Rajk999


Do you understand what happened when Adam and Eve sinned? Two things :
1. All of Adams descendents inherited sin
2. All of Adams descendents inherited a conscience - the ability to know good from evil.

So how is it that "good" people like Adam and Eve were kicked out of the garden of eden for one minor sin and in the same breath you expect the average sinner to be embraced into heaven by doing "good" works? Or perhaps you think they could have done more good works to make up for their sin which they willfully did not do?

Originally posted by whodey
But the ONLY way to enter into discipleship, is to love the Lord with all your heart and soul and to love your neighbor as yourself. After all, Christ said that if you love me, keep my commandments thus, discipleship is born. I would agree that since we have a sin nature, that avoiding sinful behavoir is fruitless endevour without discipleship. In short, without Christ at the helm, we will wreck the ship time and time again.

It should be noted also that it is the quickening of the spirit at regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments. In light of this, it is probably more accurate to say that the only way to enter into discipleship is to be born again. The subsequent fulfilling of the righteousness of the law (i.e., loving the Lord with all your heart, all your soul, all your strength, and your neighbor as yourself) is thereafter the work of the Holy Spirit in the born again believer's life. Would you agree?

Originally posted by epiphinehas
It should be noted also that it is the quickening of the spirit at regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments. In light of this, it is probably more accurate to say that the only way to enter into discipleship is to be born again. The subsequent fulfilling of the righteousness of the law (i.e., loving the Lord with all your hear ...[text shortened]... is thereafter the work of the Holy Spirit in the born again believer's life. Would you agree?

Yes.

As for those who have not heard or who reject the gospel based upon being decieved, I offer no judgements. Let God be the judge. I can only point to what I know is true and tell others.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I think Paul is quite clear in stating that neither Jew nor Gentile are righteous ...

Here is a fact that can be supported by Biblical references :

There were/are good and righteous and perfect people (Jews and Gentiles) all through the ages, before Christ, during Christ and now. So you need to understand Paul's statement in the light of that fact.

All have inherited a sinful nature. That has nothing to do with the fact that all are also capable of discerning good from evil.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
It should be noted also that it is the quickening of the spirit at regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments.

Any references to support this?
Ive heard people say this before and in my opinion its a gross misunderstanding of what Christ said. When does the regeneration take place?