29 Oct 09
6 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999====================================
Any references to support this?
Ive heard people say this before and in my opinion its a gross misunderstanding of what Christ said. When does the regeneration take place?
Any references to support this?
Ive heard people say this before and in my opinion its a gross misunderstanding of what Christ said. When does the regeneration take place?
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The phrase "the regeneration" is used once in the New Testament (Matt. 19:28), I think, where it refers to the millennial kingdom. That, I think, is not the regeneration which is spoken of happening to the believer in Christ when she is born anew.
The footnote in the Recovery Version on Titus 3:5 reads as thus:
"The Greek word for REGENERATION is different from that for REGENERATED in 1 Peter 1:23. The only other place the word is used is Mathew 19:28, where it is used for the RESTORATION in the millennium .... Here [ in Titus 3:5] it refers to a change from one state to another. Being born again is the commencing of this change. The washing of regeneration begins with our being born again and continues with the renewing of the Holy Spirit as the process of God's new creation, a process that makes us a new man.
[REGENERATION] is a kind of reconditioning, remaking, or remodeling, with life."[/b]
There is more but that is some ground work. Regeneration happens when the Spirit of Jesus Christ makes alive the deadened human spirit. This happens at the moment the person receives Jesus. This happens whenever the Holy Spirit unites with the human spirit to become "one spirit" with the believer according to 1 Cor. 6:17.
When a person is born again through receiving Jesus Christ as "life giving Spirit" into their life, he is regenerated. The WHEN of being regenerated is best associated with the moment Christ enters into a person's human spirit.
As stated above based on Titus 3:5, this could be considered the BEGINNING of the process of regeneration. So on one hand the New Testament discribes it as an event. And on the other hand it discribes it as an ongoing process.
Here are some examples of each (Titus 3:5 uses the Greek word found in Matt.19:28), The referenes in Peter's letter refer to a different Greek word.:
1.) As an event - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has regenerated us unto a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. (1 Peter 1:3)
See also 1:23 - "Having BEEN regenerated not of corruptible seed but of incorruptible, through the living and abiding word of God." (1 Pet. 1:23)
In the past the believers have BEEN regenerated.
2.) As an ongoing process - "Not out of works in righteousness which we did but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
For further study I recommend www.regenerated.net
29 Oct 09
Originally posted by jaywillThanks for this information. I was specifically referring to Epi's statement that its the regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments. Is there a reference for that?
[b]====================================
Any references to support this?
Ive heard people say this before and in my opinion its a gross misunderstanding of what Christ said. When does the regeneration take place?
============================
The phrase "the regeneration" is used once in the New Testament (Matt. 19:28), I thin ...[text shortened]... us 3:5) [/b]
For further study I recommend www.regenerated.net [/b]
30 Oct 09
Originally posted by Rajk999====================================
Thanks for this information. I was specifically referring to Epi's statement that its the regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments. Is there a reference for that?
Thanks for this information. I was specifically referring to Epi's statement that its the regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments. Is there a reference for that?
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With some explanation I provide some samples:
1.) " ... the righteous requirement of the law may be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the spirit" (Romans 8:4)
With the human spirit being regenerated the believer can learn to walk by its new enfluence and fulfill the righteous requirement of the law.
2.) "But I say, Walk by the Spirit and you shall by no means fulfill the lust of the flesh" (Gal. 5:16)
Here again, the human spirit being indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the believer must learn to "walk by the Spirit". Gal. 5:16 and Rom. 8:4 are virtually equivalent.
3.) "He has granted to us precious and exceedingly great promises that through these you might become partakers of the divine nature ..." (2 Pet. 1:4)
The reason there is the possibility for the Christian to walk so as to fulfill the just requirement of the law is because God's precious promises have granted that he be a "partaker of the divine nature". He was born with only the human nature. At regeneration he receives in addition to this, "the divine nature".
4.) "Everyone who has been begotten of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been begotten of God." (1 John 3:9)
Being made partakers of the divine nature is equivalent to receiving the divine "seed". The one begotten of God has God's none sinning "seed". If he learns to walk by this seed, this nature, he cannot sin because that "seed" is actually God's life.
5.) "Abide in Me and I in you. as the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me." (John 15:4)
Christ the true vine has the supply of divine life. If the born again man learns to abide in Him and let Christ abide in him, this mutual abiding will cause the disciple to bear fruit.
The important point here is that without abiding in Christ as a realm and sphere of enfluence man can do nothing. The life must flow out of Christ and into the ones abiding in Christ as branches in a vine.
These are a few passages. Today Christ Spirit who can be dispensed into the human spirit. He has the divine nature which He can bring into man. He is the divine seed of God which cannot sin. And He is the true vine who can flow His divine being into His believers as they abide in Him.
I emphasize that this is something the believer must grow into. It is not the automatic flick of a switch. As the natural life grows, develops, and matures so also the new spiritual life must grow, develop, and mature.
30 Oct 09
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillGood.. I see. In the light of your interpretation of those verses :
[b]====================================
Thanks for this information. I was specifically referring to Epi's statement that its the regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments. Is there a reference for that?
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With some explanation I provide some samples:
1.) " ... the righte atures so also the new spiritual life must grow, develop, and mature.[/b]
- how did people prior to the time of Christ manage to be fruitful and perform good works,
- how is it that there are references to some Gentiles who never knew Christ who did good works ??
Surely you must realise that the conclusion "..its the regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments" .. cannot be true.
30 Oct 09
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999=======================================
Good.. I see. In the light of your interpretation of those verses :
- how did people prior to the time of Christ manage to be fruitful and perform good works,
- how is it that there are references to some Gentiles who never knew Christ who did good works ??
Surely you must realise that the conclusion "..its the regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments" .. cannot be true.
- how did people prior to the time of Christ manage to be fruitful and perform good works,
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The short answer is that they followed their conscience and did the best they could. The Jews had the law of God. Thier sins were atoned for as they had faith in the sacrifices. These sacrifices pointed forward to Christ who had not yet come.
I think we can also say that God helped them. For example Genesis says "Noah found favor in the eyes of the Jehovah" (Gen. 6:8). God helped them. And the many Psalms indicate that God helped those seeking to live under the law.
As to the Gentiles, there is no question that Scripture pronounces some of them as righteous is a relative sense. Even when the Gospel came to the Gentiles God told the Gentile Cornelius of the righteous alms given by hm:
" ... a certain man named Cornelius, a centurion of ... the Italian cohort - Devout and one who feared God with all his household, giving alms to the people and beseeching God continually." (Acts 10:1,2)
An angel speaks to this man - "Your prayers and your alms have ascended as a memorial before God. And now send men to Joppa for a certain Simon, who is surnamed Peter" (v.5)
There is little doubt that this Gentile Cornelius was doing something pleasing to God. But he still needed the Gospel now that Christ had come.
But before the coming of Jesus these times were called "times of ignorance" and now God demands all men to repent and believe the Gospel.
Here Paul is speaking on Mars hill to a philosophical audience of mostly Greek Gentiles:
" Therefore, [God] having overlooked the times of ignorance, God now charges all men everywhere to repent, Because He has set a day in which He is to judge the world in righteousness by the man whom He has designated, having furnished proof to all by raising Him from the dead." (Acts 17:29-31)
Here the apostle refers to times before the coming of Jesus as "times of ignorance". In those times in a relative sense God did indicate some were righteous.
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- how is it that there are references to some Gentiles who never knew Christ who did good works ??
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I hope the above passages help. When you read the book of Genesis, notice that sometime the Canaanites in Abraham's time actually scolded the prophet. They knew something about what was right to do and not right to do just according to the God created conscience in them (Gen. 12:18-20) And Paul says the work of the law is written on the hearts of the nations, their conscience accusing or excusing them now and before the last judgment (Romans 2:15,16).
It would be a good study to go through the Bible and mark out the pre-Christian Gentiles or Jews who were said to be righteous.
But God is not simply after a "good" man. He is after a God-man. He is after a man who lives in God as a realm. That is a people in whom God can live out of them. He originally created man and placed man before "the tree of life". That means man was created to have God within him as his life. Or we may say that God desired that His divine life would unite and mingle with man's created life.
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Surely you must realise that the conclusion "..its the regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments" .. cannot be true.
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I agree with this. Above I wrote that God did not simply want a good man but He wants a God-man. Jesus lived the Father. The Father was the realm in which He lived. He could have been a good man on His own power. But He did not live that way. He denied Himself and lived the Father. He denied even His good self, and lived the Father out.
He did this for our sakes not because He needed to be justified before the Father. It may seem to meet your need that you be good. But God's need is that you live God as life. The real goodness is that God is dispensed into you that you and God would be mingled.
Perhaps Epi would answer you in some other terms. But I say the highest goodness is that man is mingled with God to live God, live unto God by allowed God to live in him. For this reason "the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45). Jesus Christ became in a form in which He can be dispensed into man so that man may live Christ.
You seem to be asking "Why can't we just be good without the Holy Spirit, without Christ indwelling us?" I think you should now graduate from that kind of question and ask instead "What is Your will God? What do you want of us?"
Do not ask "How good can I be without Jesus?". You need Jesus to be saved from condemnation. But more so you need Jesus as "life giving Spirit" to live in God's eternal purpose to dispense Himself into man.
You need Jesus to be justfied judicially. And you need Jesus to be united with the life of God organically entering into His eternal purpose to have God-men, men of life.
30 Oct 09
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillWell well .. you are like a motor car salesman Jay. I come to your carlot asking for a $5,000 compact car that will take me to within 20 miles of my house and you tell me all about the amazing $300,000 Winnebago that will take me crosscountry in absolute comfort. Thanks for the information but we are not discussing that.
[b]=======================================
- how did people prior to the time of Christ manage to be fruitful and perform good works,
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The short answer is that they followed their conscience and did the best they could. The Jews had the law of God. Thier sins were atoned for as they had faith in t ntering into His eternal purpose to have God-men, men of life.[/b]
So basically you agree the statement that "..its the regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments" is wrong. End of story.
So the next question is why do Christians keep saying it and they are ALL aware that its wrong? Why ?
Its not a rhetorical question. Any idea on why many Christians cant stick to the teachings of the Bible and Christ would be useful.
Congratulations to you on saying you dont agree with that statement. And I fully understand and agree with all you said on what God is really looking for in a perfect man.
30 Oct 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999==================================
Well well .. you are like a motor car salesman Jay. I come to your carlot asking for a $5,000 compact car that will take me to within 20 miles of my house and you tell me all about the amazing $300,000 Winnebago that will take me crosscountry in absolute comfort. Thanks for the information but we are not discussing that.
So basically you agree the stateme ly understand and agree with all you said on what God is really looking for in a perfect man.
Well well .. you are like a motor car salesman Jay. I come to your carlot asking for a $5,000 compact car that will take me to within 20 miles of my house and you tell me all about the amazing $300,000 Winnebago that will take me crosscountry in absolute comfort. Thanks for the information but we are not discussing that.
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Sometimes I am not satisfied with my posts.
But I am not trying to sell you anything. As I have time I will re-examine your question and see if I missed addressing something asked.
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So basically you agree the statement that "..its the regeneration which makes it possible to keep Christ's commandments" is wrong. End of story.
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You can't put words into my mouth and then "end" the story.
Of course we need regeneration to keep the commands of Christ. How are you going to keep the commandment "Abide in Me and I in you" if He has not regenerated you?
You cannot - period. Okay, maybe we can kind of imitate Jesus for 10 minutes. But not too long. You will cave in to your Adamic nature. And such imitation is like a dog walking on its hind legs imitating a man walking.
Let's take the command of His disciples to love one another. That is not your natural love. That is a love produced by the Holy Spirit. The love that Christ calls His disciple to have is higher and purer than the natural love of the Adamic nature.
Still not persuaded. Okay.
You try to "turn the other cheek"
You try to love your enemies.
You try not to look at a woman not even to lust after her in your heart.
Let me steal your coat and see if you give me your under garment as well.
All these commands of Jesus require another life. These commands are discriptions of Jesus Christ. He is really saying live like Me.
Try it without being regenerated. If I smack you on the left cheek instead of turn the other cheek you are likely to turn the other cheek and violently lift the leg into my groin!
Do you pray for those who despitefully use you?
Let me force you to walk a mile and see if you voluntarily walk a second mile with me.
Man needs the Spirit of Christ to live like Christ. So basically I agree with Epi's statement.
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So the next question is why do Christians keep saying it and they are ALL aware that its wrong? Why ?
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If you are asking why I said something, I don't think I said anything here which I am aware it is wrong.
Did Jesus say "Without Me you can do nothing"?
Why didn't He say "Just go do it without Me"?
Why did Paul say that he was crucified with Christ and that it was no longer he that lived but Christ that lived within him (Gal 2:20)?
Why did Paul say he wanted to be found in Christ, not having his own righteousness but that which is based on faith, the righteousness of God? See Philippians 3:9
I expect you to answer.
Why did Paul say "For me to live is Christ ..."? (Phil 1:21)
Why did Jesus say "Because I live you also shall live" ? (John 14:19)
If we disciples can live without Christ, apart from Christ, why then does He say that we shall live because He will be resurrected and lives?
Why would Jesus say that no one comes to the Father except through Him?
How can a man be transformed into the image of Christ apart from the Spirit of Christ?
"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom. And we all with unveiled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory EVEN AS FROM THE LORD SPIRIT." (2 Cor. 3:17,18 my emphasis)[/b]
Transformation into His image is "by the Lord Spirit". So how can it take place without the Lord Spirit ?
Answer.
30 Oct 09
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillYou are deliberately trying to get away from the point and steer the discussion in another direction.
[b]==================================
Well well .. you are like a motor car salesman Jay. I come to your carlot asking for a $5,000 compact car that will take me to within 20 miles of my house and you tell me all about the amazing $300,000 Winnebago that will take me crosscountry in absolute comfort. Thanks for the information but we are not discussin So how can it take place without the Lord Spirit ?
Answer.[/b]
Paul said there are Gentiles whose conscience guides them to do good works, and the Bible does in fact have instances of that. Accroding to ROmans 2 such Gentiles will be judged and rewarded according to their works even though they knew nothing of the Law of Moses.
All your off the point and voluminous discussion on how to become one with Christ and acheive perfection cannot void that fact.
30 Oct 09
Originally posted by Rajk999================================
You are deliberately trying to get away from the point and steer the discussion in another direction.
Paul said there are Gentiles whose conscience guides them to do good works, and the Bible does in fact have instances of that. Accroding to ROmans 2 such Gentiles will be judged and rewarded according to their works even though they knew nothing of the L ...[text shortened]... minous discussion on how to become one with Christ and acheive perfection cannot void that fact.
You are deliberately trying to get away from the point and steer the discussion in another direction.
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Nope. I am deliberately trying to get you to explain your concept that we can be Christian disciples without having Christ, in light of New Testament teaching.
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Paul said there are Gentiles whose conscience guides them to do good works, and the Bible does in fact have instances of that. Accroding to ROmans 2 such Gentiles will be judged and rewarded according to their works even though they knew nothing of the Law of Moses.
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Part of what you wrote here I already said something very close to it.
As to the whole question of God judging the people pre-Christ or ignorant of Christ, to me there are some unknowns.
There are several passages which are related to that. To me all told they leave some unknowns.
I would like to say more but you will think me verbose, which I tend to be.
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All your off the point and voluminous discussion on how to become one with Christ and acheive perfection cannot void that fact.
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I am not sure what you wish to argue exactly.
Yes, to keep the commandments of Jesus we need the life of Jesus.
I see you not answer my questions. I see you belittle my writing. I see you do this and that. I do not see you show that a man can keep the commandments of Christ apart from the life of Christ.
"You must be born again" means "You must be born again".
The operative word there is "must". To participate in the kingdom of God you "must" be reborn with the life of God. That life is Christ.
30 Oct 09
2 edits
Originally posted by jaywillWe agree.
[b]================================
You are deliberately trying to get away from the point and steer the discussion in another direction.
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Nope. I am deliberately trying to get you to explain your concept that we can be Christian disciples without having Christ, in light of New Testament teaching.
= he kingdom of God you [b]"must" be reborn with the life of God. That life is Christ.[/b][/b]
Sometimes Gentiles who know neither the law nor Christ, do good works, get salvation.
More often disciples of Christ follow his commandments and get the same salvation.
Nothing to argue about. No need to pick one or the other. Both happen.
30 Oct 09
Originally posted by Rajk999================================
We agree.
Sometimes Gentiles who know neither the law nor Christ, do good works, get salvation.
More often disciples of Christ follow his commandments and get the same salvation.
Nothing to argue about. No need to pick one or the other. Both happen.
We agree.
Sometimes Gentiles who know neither the law nor Christ, do good works, get salvation.
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If we agree, could you please quote me exactly where I said the above?
I would like to see the statement I wrote which causes you to say "We agree".
01 Nov 09
Originally posted by Rajk999Why then did Christ go to the cross? Was it in vanity if all we have to do is "good works"?
We agree.
Sometimes Gentiles who know neither the law nor Christ, do good works, get salvation.
More often disciples of Christ follow his commandments and get the same salvation.
Nothing to argue about. No need to pick one or the other. Both happen.
01 Nov 09
Originally posted by whodeyYou dont seem to understand the teachings of Christ. Good works are not optional. Its an essential component of salvation. I have never come across anybody go to such lengths to try to explain away the need for good works like you do.
Why then did Christ go to the cross? Was it in vanity if all we have to do is "good works"?
02 Nov 09
There must be some type of balance in this argument. Good works are the fruit of the spirit so the bible says. Christ says you will know the tree by it's fruit. James talks about what good is your religion if it has not works. Of course faith seems to be a key component that cause one to want to do good works.
Manny
02 Nov 09
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999The theif on the cross is the example of what I am talking about. He had NO chance to do any good works. In fact, he "deserved" his fate yet he attained eternal life.
You dont seem to understand the teachings of Christ. Good works are not optional. Its an essential component of salvation. I have never come across anybody go to such lengths to try to explain away the need for good works like you do.
Christianity is the only religion that I know that does not use the good works bad works scale of justice as you can only hope the good works outweigh the bad works. Perhaps the exception was in Judism as they sacrificed animals to atone for their sins which was an indication of what was to come through Christ and his sacrifice for our sins.
When one is converted and surrenders their life to Christ, a change occurs within their heart. They then begin to be led by Chrsit living in their hearts and should then be led to do good works accordingly. Therefore, I would say that good works are an indication of conversion, not a requirement as is seen with the theif on the cross. Only God knows when this conversion takes place, not you, not me.