“I felt like praying or something, when I was in bed, but I couldn't do it. I can't always pray when I feel like it. In the first place, I'm sort of an atheist. I like Jesus and all, but I don't care too much for most of the other stuff in the Bible. Take the Disciples, for instance. They annoy the hell out of me, if you want to know the truth. They were all right after Jesus was dead and all, but while He was alive, they were about as much use to Him as a hole in the head. All they did was keep letting Him down.” -J.D. Salinger, The Catcher in the Rye
"I noticed that all the prayers I used to offer to God, and all the prayers I now offer to Joe Pesci, are being answered at about the same fifty percent rate. Half the time I get what I want, half the time I don't...Same as the four-leaf clover and the horseshoe...same as the voodoo lady who tells you your fortune by squeezing the goat's testicles. It's all the same...so just pick your superstition, sit back, make a wish, and enjoy yourself...” -George Carlin
"Scientists Can Hardly Believe in Prayers to Supernatural Beings: Scientific research is based on the idea that everything that takes place is determined by laws of nature, and therefore this holds for the action of people. For this reason, a research scientist will hardly be inclined to believe that events could be influenced by a prayer, i.e. by a wish addressed to a Supernatural Being." -Albert Einstein, 1936, responding to a child who wrote and asked if scientists pray; quoted in: Albert Einstein: The Human Side, edited by Helen Dukas & Banesh Hoffmann
http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/Einstein-on-a-Personal-God.htm
Originally posted by wolfgang59"But being prayed for is unhealthy..." including a parent praying for a seriously ill child?
I quite agree - I am sure that it is psychologically beneficial to the one doing the praying.
But being prayed for is unhealthy - it puts pressure on somebody who is already stressed enough!
The post that was quoted here has been removedThere are a number of recorded cases where prayer was the only answer.
In my own lifetime, my dad was close to the Lord, and God heard my dad. There were three girls, all diagnosed with multiple scierosis. Their mother asked my dad to pray for them. The doctors could not understand how there spines began to untwist, and straighten. After three years, the two younger daughters were completely healed. The oldest daughter's healing seemed slower, yet her spine was still straightening. At one point the media got involved. The news paper reporter asked her how it was possible. But instead of telling him of God's healing, she took the credit upon herself. From that point on it stopped. She never became completely healed as her sisters did, and the scierosis never advanced either.
During W.W.II the country of Belgium was about to be invaded by the Germans. The country as a whole, got on their knees and prayed for God to protect them. As a result the German army turned and went elsewhere. It is documented by German officers that they were supposed to march into Belgium. But no one knew why they did not.
The post that was quoted here has been removedAs an atheist, I believe that religions have done great harm. Yet I also
believe that religions--in various forms--would not have survived for so
long if they did not appeal to some fundamental needs of many people
and be able, apparently, to bring them some significant benefits.
From what I can tell, the vast majority of people are enslaved by anxiety/fear and/or pleasure. The "benefit" is a reduction in anxiety/fear and/or an increase in pleasure via delusion.
*If* a scientific study could find that praying tends to relieve stress or
have some measurable health benefits for some people, then would it be
necessarily still considered irrational for those people to pray?
It would be irrational nonetheless, just as OCD and all other forms of ritual are irrational.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Prayer is firstly, "swimming upstream".
The whole current of this fallen world is drawing down and away from God.
Prayer is firstly an exercise of the spiritual component of man to go against the prevailing natural current.
The dead leaves drift down the stream with current.
Learning to pray is a rejection of this passive death float away from God.
It is the exercise of the spiritual part of our humanity to move towards God. And like any other exercise one gets stronger in doing it.
Our faith is only half of the matter.
God's eagerness, willingness, and faithfulness to fellowship with us in His great love for us, is the other side.
Prayer is not solely a matter of saying "Give me, give me, give me."
Prayer is also the enjoyment of fellowshipping with God, lingering in God's presence, soaking up His element, and abiding with Him.
God answers prayer. Sometimes the answer is "No."
God answers prayer. Sometimes the answer is beyond what you hoped for.
Prayer changes the prayer when done effectively.
That change is always for the better, happier, healthier, more joyful and assured, and peaceful believer in God.
Prayer should become as normal as breathing. That means one does so even barely conscious of doing so, like breathing in God and breathing out the old damaged Adamic personality.
- Joined
- 16 Jan 07
- Moves
- 95105
Originally posted by Pudgenikthere is no cure for multiple sclerosis.
There are a number of recorded cases where prayer was the only answer.
In my own lifetime, my dad was close to the Lord, and God heard my dad. There were three girls, all diagnosed with multiple scierosis. Their mother asked my dad to pray for them. The doctors could not understand how there spines began to untwist, and straighten. After three years, th ...[text shortened]... German officers that they were supposed to march into Belgium. But no one knew why they did not.
belgium was invaded by germany, the germans did not 'turn away'.
The post that was quoted here has been removedBrava! I find your post about prayer remarkable for someone who professes to be atheist. It demonstrates an empathy I don't often get from atheists. It is obvious you've given thought to this topic and you can see why prayer is important to some people.
Those who find prayer irrational are missing one thing. It is not you doing the praying. It is a believer doing the praying. To that believer, prayer is a very real and logical thing to do. I believe (heh) that we believers have an impulse to pray and we do not feel comfortable if we delay it or put it off. We pray as a communication to God. Normally, most of my prayers are for other people these days. It can be as simple as a momentary bowed head, as saying a quick prayer before a meal, or other prayer for my own needs, such as a quick "Oh Lord, give me strength to get through this meeting" or it can be an elaborate, get-down-on-my-knees prayer session. I believe prayer is necessary as a kick-starter to get the wheels moving if you have special requests, like an intervention, for example. And yes, I always, always feel less stressed after prayer, no matter if I am praying for myself or for someone else.
Duchess, you are relatively new to this forum, so you may not have heard me say this before, but I believe that the evil many attribute to religion is not the fault of religion itself, but it is the fault of evil men, who use religion to further their evil agendas. Nearly all the evil things attributed to religion, the Crusades, the Inquisition, and others, were seen through by evil men wishing to gain power or to exercise power once gained.
- Joined
- 16 Jan 07
- Moves
- 95105
Originally posted by sonshipdid you know that when christians pray they activate the same parts of the brain used when having a conversation.
Prayer is firstly, "swimming upstream".
The whole current of this fallen world is drawing down and away from God.
Prayer is firstly an exercise of the spiritual component of man to go against the prevailing natural current.
The dead leaves drift down the stream with current.
Learning to pray is a rejection of this passive death float away ...[text shortened]... nscious of doing so, like breathing in God and breathing out the old damaged Adamic personality.
The post that was quoted here has been removedThis has one of the known problems of Pascals Wager: that there is an assumption that the investment is small.
I believe the investment is much greater than most people realise, both in time and effort as well as negative consequences. The largest negative consequences it seems to me are that people are less likely to seek other more effective remedies and they are less likely to give credit where credit is due.
Originally posted by SuzianneThose who find prayer irrational are missing one thing. It is not you doing the praying. It is a believer doing the praying. To that believer, prayer is a very real and logical thing to do. I believe (heh) that we believers have an impulse to pray and we do not feel comfortable if we delay it or put it off.
Brava! I find your post about prayer remarkable for someone who professes to be atheist. It demonstrates an empathy I don't often get from atheists. It is obvious you've given thought to this topic and you can see why prayer is important to some people.
Those who find prayer irrational are missing one thing. It is not you doing the praying. It is a ...[text shortened]... nd others, were seen through by evil men wishing to gain power or to exercise power once gained.
What makes you think that "those who find prayer irrational are missing" the fact that "it's a believer doing the praying". Of course it is. Just as it's a "believer" who "knocks on wood", "crosses fingers", etc. for luck. Similarly, "To that believer, [it] is a very real and logical thing to do. [They] have an impulse to [do it] and [they] do not feel comfortable if [they] delay it or put it off." Such compulsions are similarly irrational.