Originally posted by josephwYes. A group of faggots with their hands in the air praising Jesus.. not because they give a toss about Him but because they want to feel His super-powers flow over their bodies. Purely selfish.. like if I was Jesus Christ I would want people to do that.
I imagine you know what a group of gay faggots looks like?
Originally posted by WWindmillNo. That's not right. When God sees us, He sees His son. That's what it means to be "in Christ". We are so closely identified with Jesus, because of His sacrifice, that God is now justified in declaring us as fit for heaven as is His son Jesus Christ.
You are like filthy rags to God.
Originally posted by josephwSo it was through "those super-powers" yet again that turned you from filthy rags into something pleasing to GOD because Jesus lives inside of you.
No. That's not right. When God sees us, He sees His son. That's what it means to be "in Christ". We are so closely identified with Jesus, because of His sacrifice, that God is now justified in declaring us as fit for heaven as is His son Jesus Christ.
Many years ago I happened to read a scripture from the New Testament which said something like "If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus Christ, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved" Perhaps people who can measure up to that standard are Christians. But what would an atheist like me know?
Here is a definition given by a very early post-apostolic church father—
“Christ is the first-born of God, his Logos, in whom all people share. That is what we have learned and what we bear witness to ... All who have lived in accordance with the Logos are Christians, even if they have been reckoned atheists, as among the Greeks Socrates, Heraclitus and the like.” (Justin Martyr; d. 165 C.E.; my bold)
Orthodox theologian Olivier Clement’s commentary: “For the early church salvation is not at all reserved to the baptized ... The Word [logos] has never ceased and never will cease to be present to humanity in all cultures, all religions, and all irreligions. The incarnation and resurrection are not exclusive but inclusive of the manifold forms of his presence.” (Olivier Clement: The Roots of Christian Mysticism.)
This is the logos that is in the beginning with and as God (John 1:1). [And I think that “first-born” here has to be seen in that context.]
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Notes—
Logos is a word rich in meaning—including “meaning.” Conventionally translated as “word,” it also means principle, pattern, reason, meaning, deliberation, truth—as well as various terms of discourse. In Chinese Bibles it is translated as “Tao”—the Way. An example might be to speak of the logos of the grain of wood in a particular kind of tree: a forester can tell by the grain what kind of tree the wood came from, but the grain of each individual tree is also unique. I generally leave it untranslated.
Jesus was viewed as ho Christos (and “son”, a personalized term for the logos as second hypostasis of the trinity) because he was (or came to be) seen as the exemplar (or ikon, or sacrament) of the logos tou theou (“logos of God” ) manifest in human form (incarnate). Monogenes, often translated as “only-begotten,” really means unique, not exclusive. In John 1:3, for example, all things are literally “begotten” (or “engendered”: egeneto) through (dia) the logos).
Greek Orthodox bishop and theologian John D. Zizioulas writes: “The problem which the use of the term logos as ‘word’ for Christ created in the early church shows how dangerous the application to Christology of the notion of ‘word’ as spoken or written can be. As a reaction against Sabelleianism and Arianism, the Fathers were forced to deny entirely any association of these two senses of logos and thus replace definitely the connotation of spoken or written word with that of the person exclusively.” (Being as Communion, p. 190.)
Jesus—in the context of his own expression/manifestation/incarnation of the logos (again, not exclusive)— essentially defined the meaning of logos as “the way and the truth and the life.” (John 14:6).
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I think this Orthodox (capital “O” ) understanding fits in with what ThinkOfOne was saying... In any event, it is a definition from another (and ancient) stream of Christianity. Some Protestants will reject it as “tradition”, rather than “scripture”, but I have never understood why one should accept the tradition’s determination of the Biblical canon, and then dismiss early traditional readings of it—or the idea of an oral tradition handed down alongside of the texts (at the time Justin wrote, there was no "Bible" as such). But that has been argued to death on here, and I’m not going to take it up...
It will also illustrate that there is no agreed-upon singular definition across sectarian lines.
Originally posted by FabianFnasI God is the one who saves people and makes them 'Christian' then He should be allowed to define the term.
If I use Wikipedia, it wouldn't be much of a debate, would it?
I'm looking for a definition that we can agree upon. So when someone says "I'm a christian" I can tell if he is or not.
Like:
Does a christian have to believe in creationism?
Must a christian kill homosexuals, because it says so in the bible?
Must a christian be against abortion?
Is ...[text shortened]... can anyone say that "I am christian and therefore I have the truth about --- in my hand!"
And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch. (Acts 11:26)
According to the above Scripture the word 'Christian' is a nickname for a disciple of Jesus Christ. I think the best Scripture to define disciple is:
Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. (Luk 9:23)
I don't know how helpful this is though, since it is once again open to interpretation. One interesting thing to not is that according to Jesus not all 'Christians' who call Him Lord will go to heaven:
Matt 7:21-23 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'