Difficulty on Noah's Flood?

Originally posted by FMF
When I am addressing you, "The stuff" is not vague and general at all.

As you know, I find your claims about "perfect justice" and "ultimate morality" incoherent and therefore cannot take you seriously on any moral issue as long as it is underpinned by the notions you propagate.

That "stuff" is very specific, sonship, and not "vague and general" at all. ...[text shortened]... nd general.

It's rather disingenuous of you to say so after all the conversations we've had.

It's rather disingenuous of you to say so after all the conversations we've had.

No it isn't. When addressing me, you have talked about many things over the years.

You are just now selecting a topic from many and falsely accusing me because I didn't consider that the only matter we've ever discussed.

Originally posted by sonship
No it isn't. When addressing me, you have talked about many things over the years.

You are just now selecting [b]a topic from many and falsely accusing me because I didn't consider that the only matter we've ever discussed.[/b]

You are being completely disingenuous.

Originally posted by sonship

Do you find it impossible in every and all instances to believe that you need forgiveness for some things you have done ? Is that simply an impossible concept for you to believe ?

Do you find it impossible to believe that there could be Someone to whom you could turn around at the end of 365 days and say "If you are THERE, Just in case, I want to say thankyou for the good things that went on with me in this last year."

Do you find it utterly impossible to believe that conceivably you could thank God for being able to rise up this morning with a sound mind and body ?

What "forgiveness" are you talking about? I am only aware of the forgiveness that humans confer upon one another. Presumably you are talking about the supernatural being you believe in. I cannot pretend to believe in it, never mind "choose" to.

How can I possibly "turn to [this being you believe in] 365 days a year" and thank it if you have given me no reason to believe it exists?

Your hypotheticals do not address what Fetchmyjunk has claimed at all. Your hypotheticals do not address the fact that asserting that people can somehow "choose" to believe things - that they don't believe in - rings false, psychologically, and it's playing rhetorical fast-and-loose with the truth of the human condition.

Originally posted by sonhouse
And you refuse even to think about the issues I brought up. No insult meant, I am pointing out the story was written by men and is not real. Why don't you answer the charges rather than just saying it is insulting? Like the lack of genetic diversity of all land animals that would have certainly resulted from lowering the gene pool to one reproducing couple.

The animals described in Genesis as being on the ark were not only one pair each. The Bible clearly states "Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth." (Gen. 7:2-3) This was seven pairs of all the clean animals and 2 pairs of all the unclean animals and seven pairs of all fowl.

I'm not trying to nitpick. It's just that I see people getting this wrong all the time.

Originally posted by FMF
Your hypotheticals do not address the fact that asserting that people can somehow "choose" to believe things - that they don't believe in - rings false, psychologically, and it's playing rhetorical fast-and-loose with the truth of the human condition.

I've seen you regurgitating this worn-out line plenty of times over the years, and always in the same precise way. You have crafted the line to fit your narrative.

Generally speaking, people do not "believe things that they do not believe in", and yet, people "choose" to do so all the time. Changing one's mind occurs often, it is not rare at all. One may "believe" that it won't rain today, and yet they take an umbrella with them, "just in case". One may "believe" that their candidate will win an election, and yet they show up to vote regardless.

More to your point, you yourself have "changed your mind" and "chosen" to not believe in Christianity, even though you say that, prior to that moment, that you "did believe" in it. Granted, this is not precisely what you say in your oft-repeated canard that one cannot choose to believe in what they do not believe in, since you went entirely the other way and chose to disbelieve what you had already once believed.

People change their minds often, and they even change fundamental beliefs that they hold as "defining" them in one way or another. One might be an ardent Republican their entire lives, and yet they might over time change their minds and start believing things they did not believe in before and start to adopt the beliefs of their one-time opponents and become a Democrat. Surely, even you can understand that this is a "choice", even though it also defines a deeply-held belief. One can change their thinking over time, and may one day, quite suddenly, acknowledge the change and commit to the basic ideals of their new belief. And this is a choice. Often, it is easier to just settle into their old beliefs because they don't want to be "challenged". But they make the choice because it is important to them.

YOU are the one playing rhetorically "fast-and-loose" with the statement you made (and continue to make, in your rather precise way) and in the way you have worded it. Of course, most of the time, people do not "choose to believe what they do not believe". Your wording is specific and confining to the ideas regarding the "truth of the human condition". The "truth" is that people change their minds all the time. Your statement rings true because people do not change their minds on deeply-held beliefs on a whim. It's only after relentless searching and rigorous examination of those beliefs, do people change their minds over time. But contrary to your precisely-worded statement (often worded as a question, mainly to believers, as a way to sneer at their beliefs), people change their minds about what they believe all the time. Not all people, mind you, but every day, someone, somewhere on this planet is undergoing a critical change to their belief system. You've been there yourself, as you've told us many times. And so, yes, people CAN "choose" to believe something that they did not previously believe. But rarely (in fact, almost never, which is the part of your precisely-worded phrase that carries the element of "truth" ) is it the "snap-decision" you snidely portray it to be.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Generally speaking, people do not "believe things that they do not believe in", and yet, people "choose" to do so all the time.

I think this is complete nonsense and I also think it is driven by your ideology's need for it to be so.

Originally posted by Suzianne
More to your point, you yourself have "changed your mind" and "chosen" to not believe in Christianity, even though you say that, prior to that moment, that you "did believe" in it.

Rubbish. I never "decided" to believe it, and I realized over an period of time, tenet by tenet, that I had lost my beliefs and I couldn't justify subscribing to them. There was no "decision" not to believe. There was no juncture at which I "chose" not to believe.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I've seen you regurgitating this worn-out line plenty of times over the years, and always in the same precise way. You have crafted the line to fit your narrative.

Generally speaking, people do not "believe things that they do not believe in", and yet, people "choose" to do so all the time. Changing one's mind occurs often, it is not rare at all ...[text shortened]... se that carries the element of "truth" ) is it the "snap-decision" you snidely portray it to be.

I agree that 'people CAN "choose" to believe something that they did not previously believe.' However, for most people, myself among them, choosing to adopt a new belief is only possible if there is sufficient reason and evidence to underpin such a change of belief.

On this basis, I could choose to believe Ben Affleck was a good actor after all, if I was presented with a film that i enjoyed him in. Currently however, I could not choose to believe in the existence of God, as I haven't been presented with anything that convinces me He exists.

Originally posted by Suzianne
People change their minds often, and they even change fundamental beliefs that they hold as "defining" them in one way or another.

Nobody disputes that people "change their minds" so this is a red herring. Nobody disputes that people's "fundamental beliefs" can change, but to suggest that people can "choose" to change "fundamental beliefs" is, I think, psychologically speaking, something that rings false.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
I agree that 'people CAN "choose" to believe something that they did not previously believe.'

I think people can find that they believe something because of some evidence or they can realize that they think or believe something that they didn't previously believe, but I do not think that people can simply "choose" to make these changes in belief.

Originally posted by Suzianne
One can change their thinking over time, and may one day, quite suddenly, acknowledge the change and commit to the basic ideals of their new belief. And this is a choice.

No I don't think it is a "choice" at all. They might "choose" to start going to a mosque or to a church, or "choose" to stop doing that, but I don't think that anyone can "choose" to change the beliefs that make them want to go and worship in those ways. I don't think that's the process at all. People's beliefs can change suddenly, and people can realize and acknowledge that they have lost beliefs or gained beliefs, none of this is disputed, but it's a process of change, and not a choice.

Originally posted by FMF
I think people can find that they believe something because of some evidence or they can realize that they think or believe something that they didn't previously believe, but I do not think that people can simply "choose" to make these changes in belief.

Choices, in this context, are indeed based on evidence. (For me anyway).

Originally posted by Suzianne
You've been there yourself, as you've told us many times. And so, yes, people CAN "choose" to believe something that they did not previously believe. But rarely (in fact, almost never, which is the part of your precisely-worded phrase that carries the element of "truth" ) is it the "snap-decision" you snidely portray it to be.

Well, you've heard me talk about it many times, and yet you don't seem to understand at all. I realized that I didn't believe something anymore. I didn't "choose" not to believe it. It was a process of realization, not a choice that I made, and it took, perhaps, about half a decade.

I cannot simply "choose" or "decide" to believe you when you claim the world is going to end in your lifetime, I cannot simply "choose" or "decide" to believe sonship's 'torturer God' theology.

If you or he present evidence that changes my mind or makes me realize you're right, that's one thing (and it quite simply is not in dispute), but the notion that I can simply "choose" to believe what I think are the far-fetched things the two of you believe is, I reckon, an ideology-driven assertion that does not ring true.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Choices, in this context, are indeed based on evidence. (For me anyway).

The crux of this is the Christian ideology that you will become immortal ["saved"] by simply choosing to believe in Jesus. Most people on earth cannot "choose" to believe this. I don't think it's how belief works. If I believed that I will become immortal by simply choosing to believe in Jesus, I cannot "choose" not to believe it.

Originally posted by FMF
The crux of this is the Christian ideology that you will become immortal ["saved"] by simply choosing to believe in Jesus. Most people on earth cannot "choose" to believe this. I don't think it's how belief works. If I believed that I will become immortal by simply choosing to believe in Jesus, I cannot "choose" not to believe it.

Casting all known religions and gods aside, both you and Ghost cannot find anything in the universe, including earth and human existence which is NOT an accident? No wiggle room at all for a Creator of some kind?