23 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidI agree that believing you are encountering God is a huge deal. Faith is a huge deal. I agree. "God is by far greater than a truck!" etc. etc. Yes, I get where you are coming from on this.
Encountering God is a huge deal, it’s like a pastor once said you may as well say you were hit by a MAC truck doing 80 MPH and it didn’t leave a mark on you. God is by far greater than a truck!
23 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidWell, now you come to mention it, yes, faith is a "human experience". It's a function of cognition. It is a ubiquitous experience found in the human condition; not just your religion but in literally thousands of religions stretching back through human history. One could argue that faith is one of the quintessential "human experiences".
If all you got was what anyone could get at any self-help group you never got anything that could not be found in any human experience anywhere under any name.
@kellyjay saidBut, KellyJay, I am NOT saying that "I didn’t experience" faith. I have explained that several times. It was real to me. I believed, deep down, that my faith related to reality and things that were true, just like you and your faith and your beliefs about reality and truth.
Now if you want to say I didn’t experience that therefore it cannot be real, that would be very circular of you.
23 Apr 22
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@fmf saidFaith is when you walk on a balcony with friends trusting it will not give way and cause you to fall from whatever height you are at; even walking on the ground is a measure of faith. I may have told this story before, but while in Alaska, a friend and I were hiking up a mountain; I stepped, and the ground beneath me gave way, and I nearly dropped into a hole in the ground. The tundra had covered over the hole.
Well, now you come to mention it, yes, faith is a "human experience". It's a function of cognition. It is a ubiquitous experience found in the human condition; not just your religion but in literally thousands of religions stretching back through human history. One could argue that faith is one of the quintessential "human experiences".
Faith is a human experience, an unavoidable one; we put our faith in our worldviews to guide us in what we think is true and not, that doesn't always mean we get it right, but we believe. We even have to trust the universe is intelligently understandable even to do science; we have to trust our minds that they will not deceive us, so if our minds result from an unguided process with a lucky happenstance or a marvel of design, one I think undermines our trust the other not so much.
The meta-narrative on the whole picture is foundational to all worldviews, by design or a series of incredible odds being overcome to produce stability in the universe and life on earth. I can see a guiding hand doing all of this; I'm not sure what to look for when looking for no cause causing it all as evidence. What kind of evidence points to nothing?
23 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidKellyJay, I know full well what faith is.
Faith is when you walk on a balcony with friends trusting it will not give way and cause you to fall from whatever height you are at; even walking on the ground is a measure of faith. I may have told this story before, but while in Alaska, a friend and I were hiking up a mountain; I stepped, and the ground beneath me gave way, and I nearly dropped into a hole in the ground. ...[text shortened]... a lucky happenstance or a marvel of design, one I think undermines our trust the other not so much.
23 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidIf these questions result in you having faith in Jesus Christ, that is just fine. I get it, totally. If your speculation about "a guiding hand" is the foundation of your Christian faith, I don't think this is in dispute in any way whatsoever.
I can see a guiding hand doing all of this; I'm not sure what to look for when looking for no cause causing it all as evidence. What kind of evidence points to nothing?
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@kellyjay saidJudge not, right? We are little transitory peeps, clever but limited, in a vast Cosmos.
Faith is when you walk on a balcony with friends trusting it will not give way and cause you to fall from whatever height you are at; even walking on the ground is a measure of faith. I may have told this story before, but while in Alaska, a friend and I were hiking up a mountain; I stepped, and the ground beneath me gave way, and I nearly dropped into a hole in the ground. ...[text shortened]... k for when looking for no cause causing it all as evidence. What kind of evidence points to nothing?
Follow the Way that seems right to you, and let others follow their own ways, according to their own lights -- that's my advice (to whatever extent I actually exist).
23 Apr 22
@fmf saidYou have repeatedly told me you and I have shared the same experience; you believe that, so I assume you believe everyone is quite capable of having what you had. I have told you if anyone could also feel what you experienced under any circumstance in any other name, that makes it common to all man, not one of divine origin, which we are talking about. Suppose it is just a human experience we can have under any conditions. In that case, it is a profound reality that a Mormon can feel, a Muslim, a tree-hugging pantheist. Anything common to man is just that void of any supernatural qualities and can be found at a baseball game when your childhood hero comes near to talk to you, a state of ahhhhh.
But, KellyJay, I am NOT saying that "I didn’t experience" faith. I have explained that several times. It was real to me. I believed, deep down, that my faith related to reality and things that were true, just like you and your faith and your beliefs about reality and truth.
So two groups, one all things common to man with non-supernatural spiritual components common to all man, and the other kind of experiences that cannot be explained away, and those can even be dangerously deceitful since the demonic is also a reality.
23 Apr 22
@fmf saidSorry for the rant. It is irritating seeing that thumbs down on you and dive when either of you says things that are honest discussion points; I know I have said this before. There are times I think you two deserve it, but I know I do too; it makes them meaningless when they are just thrown on because it is you.
If these questions result in you having faith in Jesus Christ, that is just fine. I get it, totally. If your speculation about "a guiding hand" is the foundation of your Christian faith, I don't think this is in dispute in any way whatsoever.
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23 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidYeah, but they absolutely deserve it. 😉
Sorry for the rant. It is irritating seeing that thumbs down on you and dive when either of you says things that are honest discussion points; I know I have said this before. There are times I think you two deserve it, but I know I do too; it makes them meaningless when they are just thrown on because it is you.
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23 Apr 22
@kellyjay saidFrom my POV, faith is at its core egocentric, and egos are arbitrary and transitory dust-devils who wish to live forever, for good or ill.
Faith is when you walk on a balcony with friends trusting it will not give way and cause you to fall from whatever height you are at; even walking on the ground is a measure of faith. I may have told this story before, but while in Alaska, a friend and I were hiking up a mountain; I stepped, and the ground beneath me gave way, and I nearly dropped into a hole in the ground. ...[text shortened]... k for when looking for no cause causing it all as evidence. What kind of evidence points to nothing?
The bad news is that given current trends in technology, the worst sort of egocentric Christians might find a way to bother the rest of us for several aeons to come. 😉
@kellyjay said"Any circumstance in any other name"?
I have told you if anyone could also feel what you experienced under any circumstance in any other name, that makes it common to all man, not one of divine origin, which we are talking about.
The circumstance/name is specifically Christian faith, Jesus etc. and not just "any" name.
Christian faith is clearly not an experience that is "common to all man".
"...what you experienced... [is] not one of divine origin..."
Well, of course. I am an agnostic atheist, so the reality in which I perceive us both to be living is not "of divine origin". Yes.