Elimination of ego

Originally posted by KellyJay
You really are stuck on that, you believe because people can think
they some how do not act according to their human nature, you think
the brain function does away with our natural impulses or something?
You have not addressed the point that even with our brains we are still
doing those things that we abohor outside of saying there is a
weakness within ...[text shortened]... quite short of over and over again
so we justify ourselves each time we do with excuses.
Kelly

I have addressed your point but you see it not. I believe that the Human acts according to the nature of her/ his mind; I believe that, once one makes the evaluation of her/ his mind, s/he can overpass her/ his attitude/ preoccupations/ instict/ psychical status/ desires/ inclination/ tendency etc. And I am sure that the Human can do such a thing thanks to Philosophy and Science alone. No religious doctrines required.

I will try to put it another way: can you call a willow try "indifferent"? Can you call a bird "stupid"? Can you call a rose "pathetic"? Can you call a mouse "evil"? Can you call a spider "fanatic"? You can do such a thing solely when you are reffering to the Human.
But you call repeatedly the lion a "killer" due to the fact that it kills its victims, and then you say that, since the Human is considered (by us, by the human beings due to a consensus) a criminal when s/he kills, either we have to accept that the lion and the Human have the same nature or that the nature of the Human is sinful.

Nope, Kelly Jay. The nature of the lion is different than the nature of the Human; the lion is not considered "unethical" due to the fact that it kills, however the Human is considered unethical when he kills😵

Originally posted by black beetle
I have addressed your point but you see it not. I believe that the Human acts according to the nature of her/ his mind; I believe that, once one makes the evaluation of her/ his mind, s/he can overpass her/ his attitude/ preoccupations/ instict/ psychical status/ desires/ inclination/ tendency etc. And I am sure that the Human can do such a thing thanks the fact that it kills, however the Human is considered unethical when he kills😵

I’m sure behavior can be altered using the mind as well, but changing
one’s nature, not so much. I’m in agreement about your thoughts
towards the willow, bird, and so on; however, people do from time to
time want to put human attributes on animals making them more
human I suppose so they can relate to them, but in my opinion that is
just pure Disney science brought to us with the introduction of animals
behaving as humans in cartoons. I’m still staying on point, you have
not addressed this at all, we act as our nature dictates, we will use our
minds towards that end as well, again people behave as their nature
dictates as do all creatures.

I completely reject the notion that people who are not ‘smart’ or
‘intelligent’ do crimes and those smart/intelligent people do not. I’d
like to see you prove that point if you don’t mind. Unless you just
make the claim that if you commit a crime that is the bar for not being
smart or intelligent, I'd say you have to have another way to prove that
since that is just stating your point is a fact and that is it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I’m sure behavior can be altered using the mind as well, but changing
one’s nature, not so much. I’m in agreement about your thoughts
towards the willow, bird, and so on; however, people do from time to
time want to put human attributes on animals making them more
human I suppose so they can relate to them, but in my opinion that is
just pure Disney sc ...[text shortened]... other way to prove that
since that is just stating your point is a fact and that is it.
Kelly

For me it is crystal clear that the Human gets solely the nature that has his mind -and at the same time he has the power to control his mind in full. Your decisions are caused solely by your mind -your mind is the agent that urges you to act this way or that way, and not your "good" or "bad" nature. The Human has the power to control his mind in full, therefore he is able to transform himself the way I said earlier at this thread; I assure you that I can do it, and I am not neither better nor worst than you -my existence and your existence are of the same nature.
So, why you insist that I have not addressed this question of yours at all? I keep up telling you that we act just as the nature of our mind dictates and that we have the power to change the given nature of our mind according to our own will. This is the nature of the Human.

A crime, ie a murder, is an act that stands against my intelligence because I respect Life. According to my personal evaluation of the mind there is nothing that stands higher than Life; so I repeat something I told you in the past: if I had to save from the fire a disabled and retarded kid or all the so called "holy scriptures" of all the known religions and all the data of the known scientific theories, I would save the kid. I consider this decision of mine "a product of intelligence", and I am sure that for me there is no other alternative. So how could I ever kill a child? And how could you define a killer of a child "intelligent"? That person is not at all intelligent, although crafty it may be.

Originally posted by black beetle
Can you call a bird "stupid"?

Why not? I have seen lots of stupid birds in my time. I have seen clever ones too.
I don't know what you think is so unique about humans but apart from degree there is really no magical distinguishing feature that sets us apart.
I think most of the more intelligent animals have a lot more control over their actions than you appear to believe, and humans are far more guided by their emotions and instincts than you appear to believe.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Why not? I have seen lots of stupid birds in my time. I have seen clever ones too.
I don't know what you think is so unique about humans but apart from degree there is really no magical distinguishing feature that sets us apart.
I think most of the more intelligent animals have a lot more control over their actions than you appear to believe, and humans are far more guided by their emotions and instincts than you appear to believe.

The unique about humans is that they are the product of their products.

Originally posted by black beetle
For me it is crystal clear that the Human gets solely the nature that has his mind -and at the same time he has the power to control his mind in full. Your decisions are caused solely by your mind -your mind is the agent that urges you to act this way or that way, and not your "good" or "bad" nature. The Human has the power to control his mind in full, ...[text shortened]... child "intelligent"? That person is not at all intelligent, although crafty it may be.

Beetle, my illustrious friend, this is most interesting, for are there not moments of aberration in the mind of a person, not its functions, but a 'drifting', sometimes from consciousness to subconsciousness in arbitrariness, not logic nor consciousness but in a whimsical fashion, thoughts come and go, dissipate as the poet calls it 'like smoke rings of the mind' Also one of the worst ills that may afflict the mind it seems to me is confusion, the mind as it tries to interpret itself, if because of a wrong thought process or lack of objectivity, or preconceptions, whatever, then delusion may persist, and a consequence of the delusion, is confusion when some alternative aspect is pointed out to us or brought to our attention. therefore it seems to this pathetic Patzer that either one must surrender his mind to a higher source in the hope that it may attain through imitation and assimilation, thoughts and actions which are noble, or try very hard to work out this path of nobility for oneself, given the natural abilities that each one may possess. what say you my learned friend.😵

Originally posted by black beetle
The unique about humans is that they are the product of their products.

Can you expand on that? Are you sure it is unique to humans?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Can you expand on that? Are you sure it is unique to humans?

I am sure that this is the nature of the mind of the Human, however I don't know how consiousness was born although Daniel Goleman, amongst else scientists and philosophers, at his book "Emotional Intelligence" backs up in full the opinion that the dynamics of our brain as we know them today they evolved almost 100.000.000 years ago.

It seems to me that if life and consiousness are evolutional processes, there must be differ levels of Life and differ levels of consciousness; the so called "miracle" of the birth of consciousness is not bigger than the "miracle" of the total establishment of our consiousness when we wake up in the morning.
Anyway we know that a new born baby who has no datas of memory is able to start a synthesis of its consiousness through access and evaluation of the elements of the reality as it perveives and understands it. This is in my opinion the first step of the Human. The most recent is the huge synthesis of the "knowledge" of everything he has gained through his history.

The nature of the consiousness I feel free to attribute to the animals is at least a well wired central neurosystem, and I can also attribute to them the sense of Time -of course not in a way analogous with the concept of time we have. And I am sure that the animals have the sense of themselves.

Also I am aware of the fact that some animals are taking care of the dead members of their pack -and this is an indication that they have a higher level of consciousness.

Over here I tell you that I do not believe at all that the Human is a more valuable emanation of existence for the universe that any other; but, as a Human, if I had to choose to save a mouse or a Human I would save the Human.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Beetle, my illustrious friend, this is most interesting, for are there not moments of aberration in the mind of a person, not its functions, but a 'drifting', sometimes from consciousness to subconsciousness in arbitrariness, not logic nor consciousness but in a whimsical fashion, thoughts come and go, dissipate as the poet calls it 'like smoke rings ...[text shortened]... lf, given the natural abilities that each one may possess. what say you my learned friend.😵

It seems to me my trusty feer that the Human has just to do Nothing;
it is enough to sit down quietly and to start observing her/ his mind.

Then, at the time your mind thinks, just watch this seemingly endless river of thoughts having the awareness that your real self is the Observer of the River and not the River itself. The Observer -the real You- is the driver of your mind; the Observer is your real Self, and he can drive his mind/ body, this Great Vehicle, to the place he "wants".

Once you become aware of the fact that You, the Observer of your mind/ body/ Life, you can pick from your differ thoughts the ones that offer the best under the circumstances shape of your awareness, then you will see that this Observer is the sole agent that can give to the tendencies of your mind the nature of your will.

Your thoughts are merely notions regarding the Shape of reality as you understand it according to the operational mode of your mind. Doing solely whatever your intelligence forces you to do, is enough😵

Originally posted by black beetle
It seems to me my trusty feer that the Human has just to do Nothing;
it is enough to sit down quietly and to start observing her/ his mind.

Then, at the time your mind thinks, just watch this seemingly endless river of thoughts having the awareness that your real self is the Observer of the River and not the River itself. The Observer -the real Yo ...[text shortened]... ional mode of your mind. Doing solely whatever your intelligence forces you to do, is enough😵

The real you is that which drives your mind has a nature to it, the
mind will act upon the will addressing it. Our nature has use doing all
manner of things we give credit to ourselves, while others we condemn.
Our nature is damage, if there is a 'right' way to act and we don't do
it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The real you is that which drives your mind has a nature to it, the
mind will act upon the will addressing it. Our nature has use doing all
manner of things we give credit to ourselves, while others we condemn.
Our nature is damage, if there is a 'right' way to act and we don't do
it.
Kelly

My mind thinks, I observe my mind thinking, I know I am not my thoughts the same way I know I am not what I see, I know that my thoughts are notions produced by my mind in order to give shape to the abstract ideas it tries to decipher whilst trying to understand "reality", I know that I give phenomenal shapes to this void the way I want through my decisions and I transform constantly the way my mind thinks by means of being aware of the nature of the void.
This is the nature of the Human and not the "damage". There is not a "right" way or a "wrong" way; "right" and "wrong" is a product of your dualistic approach and a pure dead invention of the Human.

Originally posted by black beetle
My mind thinks, I observe my mind thinking, I know I am not my thoughts the same way I know I am not what I see, I know that my thoughts are notions produced by my mind in order to give shape to the abstract ideas it tries to decipher whilst trying to understand "reality", I know that I give phenomenal shapes to this void the way I want through my decis ...[text shortened]... ong" is a product of your dualistic approach and a pure dead invention of the Human.

As I have been saying if you believe there is no right or wrong way to
act, than all actions are just us acting out the ways humans do, we
are what we are and throughout time we behave the same way. We
treat each other and all other creatures and things as we treat them,
so when I say we kill, steal, and lie it is human nature that we do that.
Now I believe there is a 'right' way to act, and moving away from that
right way gives us all the wrong ways. That which drives us to act out
side of the right is our nature, and it is a sinful nature which causes us
to do wrong.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
As I have been saying if you believe there is no right or wrong way to
act, than all actions are just us acting out the ways humans do, we
are what we are and throughout time we behave the same way. We
treat each other and all other creatures and things as we treat them,
so when I say we kill, steal, and lie it is human nature that we do that.
Now I be ...[text shortened]... ide of the right is our nature, and it is a sinful nature which causes us
to do wrong.
Kelly

Since there is no "right" or "wrong" way to act and since we have determine due to our consensus what is "right" and what is "wrong" according to our evaluation of the mind, our actions are "right" or "wrong" regarding our relationship with the other people as established by means of the secular law. So there are solely crimes and not "sins".

The "right" way to act is the way that is promoted by my personal evaluation of the mind. If the law urges me to execute a woman because she is an adulterer, I will brake this law because it is against my intelligence. If the law urges me to punish by any means the homosexuals because they are "sinners", I will oppose this law because it is against my intelligence. And I hold myself fully responsible for my actions.

The agent who drives the Human to become a criminal is not his "sinful nature" but his thoughts, and he acts this way because he lacks of the intelligence required to dismiss these thoughts and not because he has a "sinful nature". Well, everybody can get this intelligence -and this is not a "work of god" but a process of the person itself😵

Originally posted by black beetle
Since there is no "right" or "wrong" way to act and since we have determine due to our consensus what is "right" and what is "wrong" according to our evaluation of the mind, our actions are "right" or "wrong" regarding our relationship with the other people as established by means of the secular law. So there are solely crimes and not "sins".

The "r ...[text shortened]... ce -and this is not a "work of god" but a process of the person itself😵

Secular law does not change human nature, because we see in spite
of law people still do all the things that are prohibited. You are
bringing up an external force that attempts to change behavior by an
external threat, but the nature of man is internal and wins out over
the law as you see it play out in life, people still do all the things the
law prohibits. Human behavior is dictated by human nature,
our “MINDS” will help us along the way to full fill the desires of each
human, but it doesn’t change our nature, we still act the way we have
always done. Your mind by your personal evaluations along with
everyone else has human beings still has mankind behaving as it
always has.

I find your argument a little inconsistent, in that on one hand you
propose secular law changes human behavior yet, in the same post
you reject other laws, because you don’t like them, because it goes
against your intelligence. Others may reject a law because it goes
against their passions, their greed, their this, that, or the other thing.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Secular law does not change human nature, because we see in spite
of law people still do all the things that are prohibited. You are
bringing up an external force that attempts to change behavior by an
external threat, but the nature of man is internal and wins out over
the law as you see it play out in life, people still do all the things the
law proh ...[text shortened]... cause it goes
against their passions, their greed, their this, that, or the other thing.
Kelly

I said not that the secular law changes the nature of the Human. I keep up repeating that the nature of the Human is the nature of his mind and that the Human has the power to transform the nature of his mind at his will.

Furthermore, I respect everything that is not against my intelligence; I evaluate my passions and every other attitude of mine according to my intelligence, and then I act. There is not an attitude or bias inside me like your bias regarding "good" and "evil". I include "good" and "evil" as probabilities within myself, so when I act I care not for your evaluation about "good" and "evil". For example, once the people I love are under a lethal attack I will hesitate not even for a milisec to confront the person that threats them and help his spirit break free from his cell.